The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

Nomination of the First Minister under Standing Order 8

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item of business today is the nomination of the First Minister under Standing Order 8. Are there any nominations for the appointment of First Minister?

Mark Drakeford AC: I nominate Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Are there any other nominations?

Samuel Kurtz AS: As chair of the Welsh Conservative group, I nominate Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Are there any further nominations?

Delyth Jewell AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, I nominate Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No others? [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: As there are now three nominations, I will conduct a vote by roll call and invite each Member present to vote for a candidate. I will call each Member present in alphabetical order. Please clearly state the name of the candidate that you support when I call your name, or indicate clearly that you wish to abstain. In accordance with Standing Order 8.2, neither the Presiding Officer nor I are permitted to vote.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Right, let's start. Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Rhun ap Iorwerth. [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Cefin Campbell.

Cefin Campbell AS: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Hefin David.

Hefin David AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Andrew R.T. Davies. [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: James Evans is absent. Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Russell George is absent. Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Siân Gwenllian.

Sian Gwenllian AC: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Joel James.

Joel James AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Julie James.

Julie James AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Darren Millar is absent. Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Sarah Murphy.

Sarah Murphy AS: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Rhianon Passmore is absent. Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jenny Rathbone is absent. Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands AS: Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Vaughan Gething.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Buffy Williams is absent. Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams AS: Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I think I missed out Mark Drakeford, didn't I? No. Oh, I did have it, yes.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will now pause for the Clerk to confirm the result of the vote.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Could we ask for a recount?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You could ask, but you won't get—[Laughter.]—not unless the figures—.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. This is the result of the vote taken by roll call. I therefore declare that Vaughan Gething is nominated for appointment as First Minister of Wales. In accordance with section—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Forty-seven. Is that—? Right, okay. Just checking. In accordance with section 47(4) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, I will now recommend to His Majesty the appointment of Vaughan Gething as First Minister. I invite Vaughan Gething to address the Senedd. [Applause.]

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Members who have supported my nomination today.

Vaughan Gething AC: My sincere thanks to fellow Members who have supported my nomination today. I am particularly grateful to my predecessor, Mark Drakeford, for his nomination, and for the support that he has offered me not just in recent days, but through the many years that we have worked so closely together. I don't think any of us would ever want to live through those dark days of the pandemic again. But, like other colleagues here, I was incredibly grateful to have Mark as our First Minister through that time. History will rightly judge Mark for the compassionate, collegiate and ethical leadership that shone through those dark days for our nation. It is said that no legacy is so rich as honesty. Mark's leadership is characterised by those words. Yesterday's contribution placed that firmly on the record once more. So, can I today one again say 'diolch yn fawr', Mark, for everything that you have done for Wales? [Applause.]
Now, during Mark's contribution following his election nomination as First Minister, he recalled how, on difficult days, Rhodri Morgan would utter the words, 'Tin hat on', moments before heading into First Minister's questions. This was in December 2018, and I remember Mark asking his watching family to make sure that Father Christmas would deliver him a tin hat that year. So, to my relatives watching on today, I'd really rather not wait until Christmas; sometime in the next three weeks would be ideal.
But, Dirprwy Lywydd, as we look back at those stories of the people who have shaped devolution in its first quarter century, it is striking that there are now growing numbers of people here in Wales who have never known a time without it. In my slightly misspent youth, I included some time campaigning in the Yes for Wales movement that helped to win the referendum that made days like today possible. For a growing number of Members in this Chamber, devolution—Welsh solutions to Welsh problems and opportunities—has been a constant feature of our adult lives. In recent years, we have pushed the boundaries of what is possible with devolution. We did it, for example, to keep Wales safe. But in that same period, we have seen unprecedented hostility towards democratic Welsh devolution from a UK Government that is determined to undermine, frustrate and bypass the Welsh Government and this Senedd. As well as leaving Wales with less say over less money, it is deeply corrosive, wasteful and undemocratic.
As First Minister, I look forward to standing up for Wales and for devolution in the weeks and months to come, but I relish the opportunity to co-operate for Wales with a new UK Government that invests in partnership and in Wales’s future. I relish it because, like so many Members and friends here today, I want Wales to thrive in the sunshine that hope and social justice can offer all of us, no matter what our background, what we look like or who we love.

Vaughan Gething AC: Wales deserves more than just sunny spells.

Vaughan Gething AC: From sunny intervals, where hope too often feels hard to find, we can embrace fresh optimism and new ambition for a fairer Wales, built by all of us.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I have spoken in recent days about my determination to offer a listening ear and the hand of friendship to anyone in this Senedd, and beyond, where we share that ambition for our country’s future. Delivering on the needs of the people of Wales requires collective commitment to listening. In the face of new forces of division, restoring trust and recovering dignity in the way that we speak to one another is more important than ever. Those who seek to amplify nasty populism are hungry for a disunited Wales. Our task, I believe, is to prevent the victory of division and hate, by building bridges, by listening, by recreating a bond of trust between people and power. These are the ingredients of a kinder and more effective politics—one where we overcome the ruthless efforts to make our warm nation turn cold.
As First Minister, I will bring together a Government that constantly makes the positive case for progressive politics, to remind people that only through coming together can we achieve for the many. So, I choose to make a stand for positivity, to never fan the flames that are hurtful to people and damage our standing in the world, to stand for a set of ideas and policy innovations that are rooted in Welsh values, to stand for a leadership grounded not in bitterness, resentment or the fruitless search for a past that never was, but a leadership based on hope, to advance the case for human rights, for solidarity, and for a commitment to play a collective international role in addressing the challenges that we face.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I cannot let this election nomination pass without saying something about its historic significance. I am, after all, the first elected leader of my party and, indeed, my country with an ‘ap’ in their name. [Laughter.] We have, of course, today voted also to ensure that Wales becomes the first nation anywhere in Europe to be led by a black person. It is a matter of pride, I believe, for a modern Wales, but also a daunting responsibility for me, and one that I do not take lightly. But, today, we can also expect a depressingly familiar pattern to emerge, with abuse on social media, racist tropes disguised with polite language, people questioning my motives, and, yes, they will still question or deny my nationality, whilst others will question why I am playing the race card. To those people, I say once more: it is very easy not to care about identity when your own has never once been questioned or held you back. I believe the Wales of today and the future will be owned by all those decent people who recognise that our Parliament and our Government should look like our country, people who recognise that our hope and ambition for the future relies on unleashing the talent of all of us, a Wales that recognises that we can celebrate our differences and take pride in all those things that draw us together and make us who we are. That is the Wales that I want to lead, a Wales full of hope, ambition and unity. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch, bawb. [Applause.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Vaughan, may I wish you all the best in your new role as First Minister of this Senedd and of Wales. Good luck. But for clarity purposes, I now wish to record the votes. There were 51 votes cast: 27 in favour of Vaughan Gething, 13 in favour of Andrew R.T. Davies and 11 in favour of Rhun ap Iorwerth, with no abstentions. Thank you.

1. Topical Questions

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next item is the topical questions, and the first question is from Jane Dodds.

The Death of Kaylea Titford

Jane Dodds AS: 1. Would the Minister make a statement on the Child Practice Review into the death of Kaylea Titford? TQ1029

Julie Morgan AC: I thank the Member for that question. Kaylea, very sadly, died just after her sixteenth birthday in tragic circumstances, and her parents were convicted of her manslaughter and are now in prison. The child practice review will help us learn what more we can do to improve multi-agency safeguarding practice to protect children and young people.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much, Minister.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for the response.

Jane Dodds AS: I know how committed you are to children and young people and to their protection. I just really want to say a few words about Kaylea, because it's so difficult in these circumstances to often remember that there is a child here who has died. Kaylea was 16. She was described as wonderful, fun, determined and headstrong—and I do like this—she would not accept dietary advice when delivered in a condescending way. I think we can all relate to that, can't we? However, sadly, Kaylea died, aged 16, at 22 stone, and the conditions that she died in, when found, were described as being unfit for an animal. We must never forget that the people responsible for this, as you quite rightly say, Minister, were her parents.
However, there are two elements here that I would like to raise. The first is one that I've raised before, which is about multi-agency working, which failed Kaylea, and also failed another child who died in Wales, Logan Mwangi. Multi-agency working is something that is so important and, yet, because the agencies didn't communicate well, they lost track of her, and it's really important that we learn from this lack of multi-agency focus. But the second one is around the child practice review and this is a systemic issue. It's about the governance. Who is responsible for monitoring the actions from child practice reviews? We know that there is a new process that is being developed called a single unified safeguarding review, which should be starting next month, April 2024, but there are no details available for that.
Now, if we are to keep children and young people across Wales safe, we have to have a process that ensures there is responsibility for not only learning from those actions and holding people to account for them, but also ensures that we absolutely move those forward to ensure that people like Kayleadon't die in these circumstances again. So, I would like to ask you, Minister: how are you and the Government going to ensure that we have better multi-agency working and that we have a system that meets the needs of these very vulnerable children and young people? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Paul Davies took the Chair.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Jane. I think we do all remember we are talking about a tragedy today, where a young woman died just days after her sixteenth birthday. I think it's very important that we respect, in our debates today, the fact that a unique life has been lost and we must approach our discussion here sensitively.
As you've said, Jane, Kaylea's parents have been convicted of manslaughter by gross negligence and are serving long prison sentences. They bear the responsibility for her death. I think it's important for the Senedd to hear about what the judge said during sentencing of this case. He said:
'Help was there for the taking. It was there for the asking. It had been given before.... The failure to get any help at all, even from Kaylea’s GP, was particularly significant in the crucial lockdown months leading to Kaylea’s death.'
We do know that the COVID-19 pandemic did exacerbate her isolation and this reduced opportunities for help to be made available to the family, but I don't think it's clear how much, if any, of this help would have been taken up.
You rightly identify the importance of multi-agency working, and the learning identified from the reviews is shared currently via several routes, regional safeguarding board meetings, comprising key stakeholders, board websites and briefings, and it is used to inform multi-agency training across the region. Since the sad death of the other child that you referred to, advances have been made in terms of that working.
We do have our current programme of work to develop a single unified safeguarding review, including the development of a repository of child practice reviews, which will also include adult practice reviews and other safeguarding reviews. This will further strengthen our ability nationally to learn from and address recommendations from safeguarding reviews as part of the continuous improvement of multi-agency practice.
What we must do is learn from each unique set of circumstances, improve inter-agency working and information exchange, and we must improve the skill base and decision making of those on the front line. I think that is absolutely crucial, and that's why we have a practice framework that we have introduced as part of our transformation of children's services. I think all the things that we are doing in that transformation agenda will help address these issues.
But, basically, I want to say, my greatest sympathies to her family and we need to approach this very sensitively.

Gareth Davies AS: I'd just like to put on record my sadness at this event. I'm aware that it's not the first time that this has been raised in the Senedd. Holding the social services portfolio for the Welsh Conservatives, I've seen first-hand that this is not the only case that we've seen in Wales. We've seen the case of Kaylea Titford, which we're speaking about now, but also Logan Mwangi, which we've also discussed in this Senedd Chamber to a fair degree, shall we say?
With Kaylea Titford, Logan Mwangi, there's a theme developing here, isn't there, Deputy Minister? I've long called for, and my party have called for, a Wales-wide review of children's services, across the 22 local authorities, to encompass all of these issues that we're speaking about today, to make sure that no child slips through the net here in Wales and that we're giving the local authorities all the opportunities to have the chance to address these concerns and stop any potential future cases occurring in Wales.
Now, obviously, we've just elected a new First Minister of Wales. I'm not sure whether you'll be the holder of the post in the future or it'll be a potential successor, but will you commit in your role now or your potential successor's role to conducting a Wales-wide review of children's services? Because I believe that Wales is the only outlier in this situation. The Scottish Government and the UK Government for England have commissioned nationwide reviews of their children's services, so why should Wales be the only outlier in this situation? We can talk about policy boards, we can talk about frameworks and all the safeguards in place that currently exist, but what's wrong with having a nationwide review, in line with what Scotland and England have already done? I look at these cases and they're tragic, and we know that the people who have carried out this neglect are facing justice, as they currently are, but what's wrong with having a Wales-wide review, just to make sure that no child slips through the net in Wales and we can, indeed, try our best to stop any future cases developing, such as this and the Logan Mwangi case that we saw in Bridgend? Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Gareth, for that contribution and for your condolences about this awful situation. I would like to point out to you, Gareth, that many of the issues in this case are related to health, because I'm sure that you're aware that Kaylea did have specific health problems, and to have a Wales-wide review of children's services would not adequately address the issues that we've been talking about. The health issues that have been raised in relation to this case are actually things that we are making considerable progress on since Kaylea, sadly, died, in relation to weight management, and also in our transformation programme.
So, we have undertaken several reviews, and when I talked about the tragic death of Logan, I listed at length the number of reviews that we've had in Wales, looking at these issues. In October 2022 we asked Care Inspectorate Wales to lead on a multi-agency rapid review of decision making in relation to child protection and this report identified both areas of good practice and areas where learning can take place, and that's been considered as part of our transformation agenda. So, we're certainly prepared to do reviews and have done many reviews, but our commitment to addressing these issues is absolutely paramount. And I think it's also important to note that we do actually anticipate, in 2024, an increase in the number of child practice reviews that are published, because information from regional safeguarding boards confirms that this is linked with the fact that child practice reviews were delayed and paused between 2020 and 2022 because of the pandemic. And the demands that there were on multi-agency services during the pandemic meant that these child practice reviews didn't take place and haven't been published. So, we anticipate there being some more of those appearing now. But each one, as I've said before, I think we have to treat individually, and take on board the learning from those reviews and work to make a system where these events are less likely to happen.

Sioned Williams AS: Kaylea was disabled. She had spina bifida and used a wheelchair—those health problems that you mentioned. The report of the child practice review into her tragic death said that there was no assessment of the likelihood that she could suffer significant harm during the pandemic, and I quote:
'the evidence of the way she died permits us to conclude the contributory impact of extended quarantine...was multiple and complex, exacerbating her vulnerabilities and reducing the supportive infrastructure upon which she relied.'
This awful case really highlights how disabled people's rights were neglected and denied during the pandemic, and this came out very strongly in the evidence of disabled people's organisations to the UK COVID inquiry when it sat in Wales over the last weeks. So, does the Government acknowledge their responsibility, therefore, in the resulting suffering that occurred as a result of its conscious suspension of disabled people's rights? How can it demonstrate that lessons have been learnt for the future? And what reassurances can the Government provide us in light of the financial constraints to this year's budget that social services are sufficiently resourced to ensure that all of our citizens are properly cared for and safeguarded? Diolch.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Sioned, for those comments. Certainly, I think we do accept that disabled people did suffer during the pandemic, and disabled people's rights are something that we're obviously very concerned about and want to address.I think, reading through the report, there were some ways in which great efforts were made, before this tragic series of circumstances happened, for Kaylea to live a very full life, and I'm sure you read about the contact that was made with her continuously during the pandemic by the school. But there's no doubt that the fact that she was isolated there, was not able to attend a hub—. So, I think people in the neighbourhood noticed that she wasn't around, but then that was COVID, so they didn't expect her to be around. So, I think there were circumstances that meant the awful circumstances that were occurring weren't known to people and weren't noticed.
But, in terms of addressing the issues that you raise, which are health issues, about the fact that she suffered from spina bifida, where there is undoubtedly an issue related to weight and it's really important that weight is controlled and monitored, in 2021, we published the all-Wales weight management pathway for children, young people and families. The underpinning principles of the pathway are that it's person centred and proportionate to need. This pathway provides the opportunity for a multidisciplinary team to be created in health that would regularly assess and review needs in relation to weight management. I think it's important to make the point that, since Kaylea'sterrible death, we have made progress in terms of the weight management that is so important.
Also, there were many missed appointments in Kaylea's life, and the health service's response to missed appointments in Kaylea'scase is being addressed in the NHS national safeguarding services action plan. I think we've just got to do everything we can to reduce the risks to children and to disabled children and to protect them from harm. But, sadly, we cannot entirely eliminate the risks, and, sadly, we cannot prevent child homicide altogether, but we've just got to do our utmost. I think she makes a really important point about disabled children and what we must do about them.

Paul Davies AC: I thank the Deputy Minister.
We will move now to our next topical question, to be asked by David Rees. Because time is short, I will call one Member from each group. David Rees.

Tata Steel

David Rees AC: 2. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with Tata following the announcement to close the coke ovens at Port Talbot? TQ1034

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: Following Monday's announcement, I discussed the matter with the Tata Steel UK chief executive on the same day. This is obviously deeply disappointing news. However, we have regularly been made aware by the company and trade unions of the concerns over the operational safety of the coke ovens. Clearly, operational safety matters for workers must take precedence.

David Rees AC: Can I thank the First Minister elect for that answer? To me, I drive home from this place regularly every night; I pass the coke ovens. It'll be something to see them not working anymore. To me, that's something I will see, but, to the workers in those coke ovens and to the workers across the heavy end of the plant, there'll be huge anxiety and worry about their futures, and their families will worry and the wider community will worry, because what is the knock-on effect of all these closures? This happens when the statutory consultation process has not yet completed, the trade union negotiations with Tata themselves about what they can do to support workers for redeployment, or maybe those who, actually, may find themselves redundant, have not yet concluded. So, there's still much in what I call the ether yet, because decisions haven't been made, and anxieties are going to rise and we're going to have serious concerns over the future.
So, whilst I welcome the answer yesterday given by the then First Minister regarding the additional funding to support workers to train and reskill and gain those qualifications so they can move into new opportunities, there is still much to be done for many, many workers that are still employed by Tata. So, what plans have you managed to prepare to support workers into new employment, perhaps even looking at mechanisms to share funding or match fund job opportunities in businesses across the region? What opportunities have you identified for bringing new job opportunities into the region, so that those who may find themselves no longer employed by Tata—and that includes the contractors and the supply workforce; they're going to be just as badly affected—so they can move into work more quickly? Because this decision has accelerated the announcement of 19 January. The heavy end was due to partly close at the end of June, totally by the end of this year. We are months away from that and we are now seeing coke ovens shutting down today, actually, and blast furnace 5 dependant upon imported coke, if they can actually acquire it, and then blast furnace 4 possibly coming down at the end of October. So, it is important we now get action to ensure that those workers, those families, the communities that they live in, are actually reassured that we are looking after them in their future.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and the questions. I think there are two distinct parts to this: there’s the immediate impact of the coke oven closure, and there’s the wider challenge over the plans that Tata have for the future and the potential consequence of those, and I understand why people will be anxious about both of those.
So, in the conversations we’ve had with Tata, they’ve been clear that the current workforce around the coke ovens will be gainfully employed for some time to come. The challenge comes in the consultation that is still ongoing, and not completed, about how long-term that is, what sort of redeployment is available. There’s the safe shutdown of the coke ovens as well. It’s not something where you can simply flick a switch and it’s safely shut down; it’s quite a complex engineering challenge to safely decommission, and there is then the challenge about that broader piece. So, actually, we’ve been clear in our conversations with both trade unions and the company that there is enough coke available to maintain the blast furnaces to the current plan that Tata have so that doesn’t risk blast furnace 4 and its ability to operate into the autumn. They will now need to acquire more coke. So, that should be helpful.
The second part around what may happen now is complicated, because there is an unfinished set of negotiations that are taking place. So, we are looking, of course, at the wider economy and what the current opportunities are for the direct workforce and for contractors, and for potentially the indirectly affected group of workers. That is both about employment that exists within the wider market as well as the potential for new jobs.
Part of the reason why we have talked about the timing of any changes is that the opportunity to bring in new employment of a commensurate level, bearing in mind the wages that workers at Tata and contractors have, is part of our anxiety about the pace of any change. For this particular set of workers—and there are potentially hundreds of jobs affected as part of the consultation—that’s an easier challenge to manage. There are still a number of workers who have decent work available. But it’s actually whether the reskilling and retraining can take place. I’m confident we can provide within our current budget support for that to happen and we can co-ordinate that both with Jobcentre Plus if required, if there are people leaving the workforce, and, indeed, with the local authority as well.
The larger challenge still remains about the wider set of negotiations that are taking place at the moment, if there are people who wish to leave on voluntary terms, what those terms might be, but, actually, the end result of the ongoing negotiations. We won’t know that in the next week or two. So, this isn’t going to be something that’s going to be dealt with in a matter of the initial 45 days; it’ll take longer than that. So, I can’t give the Member a definitive view on future employment, I can’t give the Member a definitive view of the current position, because none of those conversations are complete. What I can give the Member assurance of is that, if this group of workers find themselves unemployed, there is support available from the Welsh Government and partners, and an ongoing commitment from the Government I expect to lead on making sure that we carry on making the case and making the argument for the best transition possible, both for workers, the wider economy, and, indeed, our own climate ambitions.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, while this news is a huge blow for the workforce, their families and their entire community, it is not unexpected. I recall meeting with the directors of Tata when I was first elected in 2015, and they discussed issues around the life of the plant and talked about the need for investment. Since that time, what has the Welsh Government done to work with Tata and the UK Government to secure the longevity of steel making at Port Talbot?

Vaughan Gething AC: Since that time, since I came into current post as Minister for the Economy, there has been a regular dialogue with trade unions, with the company, and indeed with the UK Government, as far as that’s been possible. It is one of my genuine frustrations—and it should be a frustration for Welsh Conservatives too—that there hasn't been a more engaged conversation with successive UK Ministers. We would be in a much better position, even with our differences between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, if there was more regular dialogue and a willingness to talk more openly. The transition board is actually a creation to manage a decline that this whole Senedd has said it doesn't want to see happen, in the way that it's currently outlined and proposed and part of the negotiation that is taking place.
I think we would all be in a better place if we could have had earlier access to trusted conversations. And it's worth just pointing out that the Welsh Government has never broken a confidence when it comes to a commercially sensitive conversation. We would have been in a better place to understand the levers that are available to the UK Government and to us, but also whether we share the ultimate end ambition, because I do think there is a healthy future for steel making in the UK. Electric arc will be part of that, but actually having primary steel-making capability is of essential, sovereign importance for the UK, and the current plan risks that. And I find it hard to believe that there are Conservative Members in this Chamber and, indeed, further afield, who are willing to take that risk on our future sovereign capability and the potential for green prosperity in the future. With a new regeneration of the way our economy works, it will still require steel to make sure we can deliver it. We can either make that steel here in Wales, or we can import it from somewhere else, with all the jobs and economic benefit that go with it.

Luke Fletcher AS: For the record, I'd just like to declare that I'm a member of one of the sub-groups of the Port Talbot transition board. This, of course, is devastating news, and the feeling of anxiety, as has already been set out by Dai Rees, amongst the community and workforce is palpable. And I completely understand why the Minister is unable to give detailed answers as to where we go from here, but that doesn't help the anxiety that is felt amongst the workforce and wider community.
Now, of course, we welcome the information we received yesterday about further investment in support packages and retraining. I haven't seen much detail, though, come through on that. So, some detail on that would be much appreciated, because I have no doubt that as a Senedd we are committed to our mission to save the Welsh steel industry, but what we need to do now, of course, is to ensure that information about what support is available trails down to the workforce and wider community. And also what does this mean not just for that directly employed workforce, but some of those contractors as well who rely on Tata Steel for their job security? I completely agree with the Minister that safety is paramount, but so too are assurances on livelihoods.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there are perhaps two or three points. The first is that there will be more detail and a written statement on that additional support. The more specific circumstance around this individual group of workers still relies on the conversation and the negotiation that is yet to be completed between the company and the recognised trade unions. And we need to be supportive and enabling of that, making it clear that we expect—as I have done consistently—a genuinely meaningful consultation that first looks at opportunities to retain the workforce, rather than looking for opportunities to downsize and shrink the workforce. So, a meaningful consultation and the way in which the company engages really does matter, and it helps if more Members across the Chamber make it clear that that's the common expectation, not just the Government's.
The second point around the broader future I think is one that still goes back to the wider conversation that is yet to conclude. We can and will put more resource into supporting workers with the transition that takes place if there is dislocation in their work, but I still think that anxiety is not something that we can remove whilst the ongoing consultation is there, while there isn't clarity about the future. But I still think there really is genuine and realistic hope for the future, and it's important not to lose sight of that. So, when we have the next transition board meeting next week, there will be both an update on what has taken place on this issue, I expect, but also about the broader picture too.
And I have made it clear in each of my meetings with the Tata leadership, and I didn't just meet the—. Last week, I met the chief exec of Tata Steel UK and the week before I met the chief exec of Tata Steel UK and the chief exec of Tata Global from Mumbai. I was very clear about the need to ensure that there is a future for the workforce, that promises are kept to apprentices, and equally that there's a recognition of Tata's responsibility to contractors. For some of those contractors, their business will be reliant on Tata—not a fraction of their business, but a very large part of it. Some of them may even be single suppliers. And Tata know who those contractors are, they understand what those businesses are. It's part of the point that I made in the previous transition board about understanding who they are and sharing that information sooner rather than later, so that the businesses know about the potential impact, but also the Welsh Government, Jobcentre Plus and, indeed, the local authorities know who those businesses are, where they're located and what potential help and support there is. Finding out that identity too late in the day could compromise a business, could compromise the viability of those businesses and have a significant impact on what they're able to do. So, that is very much the conversation we're having, as you would expect us to do.
My concern isn't that we're having a reasonable conversation—I want more information as soon as possible—it is still about the choices to be made in the coming months, and, in particular, whether we can maintain a final blast furnace that is still functioning through autumn this year, and the longer term future that this Government is committed to advocating for and making the case for, with new investment that can only come with a change at UK level.

Paul Davies AC: And finally, Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. The news coming from Port Talbot is extremely disappointing for Port Talbot and for steel communities across Cymru, and I say to the Member who represents the area: Shotton stands in solidarity with the workforce at Port Talbot and their families. As the Prif Weinidog has said before, the ability to produce virgin steel is something that is vitally important to the Welsh economy, and that is reflected in UK Labour's promised £3 billion to reinvigorate the UK steel industry. I wonder if the First Minister shares my concerns that this announcement ahead of any general election undermines an incoming Labour Government and their ability to invest in this important industry. And would you use your office as First Minister to urge Tata Steel to halt these plans and await the outcome of that much-needed general election? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think it is important to remake the case for a different future, and to be really clear about this Government's position—in fact, the position this whole Senedd took in the debate we had just a few weeks ago. I constantly restate the position of the Welsh Government: that we do not want irreversible choices made, that we want to see a blast furnace that is still running through the general election, whenever it comes. And that remains our position.
The challenge always is what takes place in the negotiation, what takes place with the business itself and, indeed, the requirements that Tata have to reorder and rework the orders they have. Because they know that if they lose customers, then those customers will go somewhere else and they won't come back. That's important for the business, and, of course, it's crucial for the workforce as well. So, there is something here about the transition time that is available, and that is in the business itself's interest, but also about making the case that there is a significant additional investment. And in fact, our UK Labour colleagues have been clear that an incoming UK Labour Government would make the £3 billion available over five years, not 10. So, actually, the front-loading of that investment is a bigger and clearer signal.
And, as I've said, there will be ambitions for the future of the UK and for Wales that will need more steel, not less. I am very clear, as indeed is the whole Government, that we want that steel to be made here in Wales as far as possible; we want the jobs that come with that and we want the opportunities that come with that wider economic infrastructure. And when we talk about green prosperity, we're very clear that steel is part of it. Not steel made to different standards in other parts of the world and transferred into Wales for rolling and introduction; that would be the worst economic future, and I'm very clear that that is not the path that we will ever advocate.

Paul Davies AC: I thank the First Minister Elect.

2. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Paul Davies AC: We will move now to item 2 on our agenda, questions to the Minister for Climate Change. And the first question is from Ken Skates.

The Transport Network

Ken Skates AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of climate change on the transport network? OQ60856

Lee Waters AC: Yes, I think we're already seeing the effects of extreme weather and climate change on all our transport networks and it's essential that we urgently take steps to prepare for the increasing risks, building on some of the good work already under way.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Minister. And it used to be that we'd only have to contend with leaves on the lines and light snowfalls on the roads, but these days, they get battered by persistent and heavy storms and by heavy rainfall. As somebody who appreciates and understands the climate emergency far more than most, would you agree that we need to futureproof our infrastructure, including transport infrastructure, for the challenges that we will face in the coming years?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Absolutely. Futureproofing is critical. We both have to adapt to the climate change we are now facing because of the carbon already emitted, as well as mitigating future emissions to stop it getting worse. And to that end, I was very encouraged yesterday by Rhondda Cynon Taf's publication of its revised plans for the Llanharan bypass, which was rejected by the roads review panel, but, working really constructively with Transport for Wales, they've redesigned the scheme, halving its embedded carbon, avoiding all loss of ancient woodland, halving its damage on habitats, and producing a scheme with half the footprint and a lower cost to build and maintain. So, that just shows that, far from banning road building, we are launching a new chapter of road building, where we are leading the way, and I look forward to seeing that example of Rhondda Cynon Taf taken up by other local authorities as well.
And of course, the railways are also under significant strain, and the cost of dealing with our railways, which, as we know, a large number of them are on the coast, is going to be huge in the years to come. I think it does give us some pause for thought in how we design our ambition for the full devolution of rail to the Senedd and the Welsh Government, because unless we're careful we're taking on a massive maintenance and adaptation liability. So, this is going to be a far-reaching issue in the years to come, and will cost us more and more money, which again is why the roads review was important: to put more money into maintenance and adaptation.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: As a result of the climatic changes and inclement weather, we've seen in the Conwy valley, in the year to December 2023, 178 trains cancelled. Out of the cancellations, 36 were due to unit shortages, while the other 142 were due to flooding. The A470 trunk road in the Conwy valley is often subject to closure as a result of frequent heavy rainfall. It used to be when we had a serious flood; now, heavy, frequent rainfall can actually cause real problems on that road. The section between Tal-y-cafn and Llanrwst is often shut due to floods and water bursts. In fact, in the last 24 hours, we've seen the road completely blocked off at Maenan, so that people can't get through now to the Conwy valley or to, say, Llanrwst, as a result of heavy rainfall and flooding on the road.
I have spoken previously about the need for us to improve the safety and resilience of the transport infrastructure in the Conwy valley, but we are still hoping for some to come forward. What assurances can you give the residents of Aberconwy that Transport for Wales and the North and Mid Wales Trunk Road Agent will work with our local authority environment, roads and facilities department to improve the resilience of the railway line and the A470 in the Conwy valley? Thank you.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Well, the Member rightly points out the range of impacts we're seeing already from man-made climate change, which is why we are taking action to tackle it. And I would say again that I welcome the support on the Conservative benches for reaching our net-zero targets and for going faster, but they also have to follow through, then, on the projects that flow from that to actually tackle the problem at source. And so far, every time we've brought forward action to tackle climate change, they've opposed it. Those two things stand in direct contradiction with each other. So, she is absolutely right to be concerned and alarmed about the impact on our communities from the more unpredictable weather. Last year was the hottest year on record, and this is only going to get worse, but we have to, together, muster the will to tackle this, rather than just mopping up the problem after it has been. We are, later this year, publishing a new national climate resilience strategy, and we are looking at bids currently to the roads resilience fund, and this is going to be an increasingly important issue in the future.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'm seeing more landslides, subsidence, stones and rocks appearing on roads and potholes growing. I'm really concerned about the resilience of the local network. There used to be grant funding for locally maintained roads, which has stopped, and I know one authority that has no funding left this financial year to fill potholes, basically, so they're waiting until April before they can continue. It's so dire.
I know there is competing funding pressures for capital resources, for schools, for housing. Highways are usually the last on the list to get funded. So, I'd like to ask you, Deputy Minister: do you think we need to have a basic limit, so that we can keep maintaining our roads? And also, do you agree that landowners also need to take responsibility for their ditches and drains to ensure that they don't actually drain onto the highways, as well, going forward?

Lee Waters AC: Yes, the pressure is there on all transport networks—road, rail and active travel—and, as I said, it's going to get more intense. We do have funding for the resilient roads fund, and I think this is going to be an increasingly important part of the way that we are dealing with climate change. As I said, over time, by redirecting funding from new roads that we don't maintain, we need to spend more on maintaining the roads we have and adapting the infrastructure to cope. A good example of that recently was the new Dyfi bridge, just north of Machnylleth, where, as a result of the assessment of flooding, the viaduct design was made longer. So, that's now a key part of our thinking as we design new schemes. But she is right, there's a range of responsibilities for this, and maintenance has never been a terribly sexy issue, as she points out, and all of us need to understand that more money needs to be directed towards that.

Wales Becoming Carbon Neutral

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 2. How is the Government ensuring that it fulfils its commitment to Wales becoming carbon neutral? OQ60878

Julie James AC: Thank you. Wales has a target of reaching net zero by 2050. Net zero is more ambitious than carbon neutrality. Our target is supported by interim targets and carbon budgets, which this and future Governments must adhere to. The plan for the current carbon budget, 'Net Zero Wales', was published in 2021.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: In light of the Stage 3 debate we had yesterday, and also a petition that was discussed in Petitions Committee on Monday, I want to get your views on the balance between large-scale solar developments and sites of special scientific interest. What protections are there now in the new Bill, as amended yesterday? And talking to the petitioners against the development on the Gwent levels, there were two other things that were raised with the committee Chair, Jack Sargeant, and myself. Could you confirm when you will publish the guidance on chapter 6 of the new Wales planning policy? And when will you also publish the post-construction monitoring study that I'm led to believe is ready for publication?

Julie James AC: Yes, that's a very excellent question, and there is always, isn't there, a balance to be struck between protecting designated landscapes of all sorts, whether they're SSSIs or we have several other designations, obviously, as well, and getting the renewables that we want and the infrastructure that we want in Wales. I think we have got to strike that balance in a very judicious way. So, we have actually, very recently as a Senedd, through our strengthening of the statutory instrument that governs designated landscapes, strengthened the protection for designated landscapes against any development at all.
One of the things I said during that debate was that I thought it was very much the case that if you stopped Mr and Mrs Jones some place in Wales and asked them whether you could pave something in a designated landscape, they would be astonished to find that you in fact could. So, we've very much strengthened that as a Senedd. That went through unanimously. I'm very pleased to say that. And that's about trying to find the right balance between what's allowed and what isn't allowed in a designated landscape.
A solar farm is a complex issue there, because solar farms are generally regarded as not permanent because they are less than 50 years, usually, as the length of the solar farm. I think 50 years is quite permanent; it will certainly see me out. So, you know, that's quite permanent from my point of view. But you can design a solar farm, and I have seen several examples of this around Wales, so that it's very high up off the ground, that it has pivoting panels, it's surrounded by trees or other protected landscapes—not necessarily trees, but peatlandor whatever—and actually has a pretty species-rich meadow underneath it, for example. So, it's hard to answer your question very specifically, because it depends on the type of solar farm we're talking about, the structure that's there, and all of the things.
I obviously can't comment on individual planning applications for obvious reasons, but we have been encouraging the solar farm industry in particular to design their solar farms in a way that means that if they are on land—on roofs of buildings is also excellent—but if they are on land, that that land is not neutralised in any way, that it's actually able to support other things. And that can be anything from grazing to flower-rich meadows, which I've seen. I've seen all kinds of things under them. You do, however, still see solar farms that are so close to the ground that they've pretty much killed the land underneath. That's probably not quite the right word, but they've made it much harder to have it as producing anything at all. We have been actively discouraging that as a design, and that's already in 'Planning Policy Wales'.
We keep all planning policy under review and, in particular, we try to keep it under review for emerging technologies. I'm no expert in this, but as I understand it, on the design of solar panels, it's much easier to make them tilt towards the sun all the time, for example, and therefore the land underneath isn't permanently shaded and so on. So, I can't answer your question about specific designated landscapes, but I can tell you those three things: we've strengthened the guidance, we work with the solar farm operators to try and get the best design, and 'Planning Policy Wales' already has a large number of those things, though we keep it under review all the time.

Mike Hedges AC: How is building more gas-powered power stations, as suggested by the Conservatives at Westminster, going to help us towards reaching the carbon neutral target? We're seeing climate change affecting our weather continually. Does the Minister agree how important the Swansea tidal lagoon is and will the Minister continue to press for the Swansea tidal lagoon to be built as we discover that gas gets more and more expensive with time?

Julie James AC: Quite clearly, Mike, I absolutely agree with you that building gas-fired power stations doesn't contribute to anything at all other than increased climate change and increased heating. We've just seen, year on year, really quite scarily, each year being hotter than the year before. This is the hottest year on record. Last year was the hottest year on record; before that, the year before was the hottest on record. We've also just had the wettest February on record. These things are not not happening to us—they're happening to us as we speak. We've seen droughts in Wales—who would have thought we would ever see a drought in Wales? These things are real; they are really real. And so, of course, what we have to do, therefore, is stop using fossil fuels.
We have to do active things to actually help the climate emergency. As my colleague Lee Waters just said, it’s all very well for the Conservative benches to tell us that they agree with this, but they always oppose everything we try to do about it. You have to actually, in the end, put your money where your mouth is. Building more gas-fired power stations is just not at all what we should be doing. Instead, we should be exploiting tidal energy. We live on an island surrounded by the most extraordinary seas—they are capable of powering the whole of Europe. Of course we should be doing that.
I was absolutely delighted to be at the marine energy conference in Swansea last Wednesday, and I was able to announce that the Welsh Government has fulfilled its programme for government commitment to hold the tidal lagoon challenge. The challenge is a £750,000 grant fund, which will reduce or remove barriers to the tidal lagoon development. We had a strong set of applications, and I had the real privilege of announcing the winners of those applications. We now have three projects ongoing across Wales looking to see how we can accelerate the development of a tidal lagoon, not just in Swansea, which I would very much like to see, but actually in all of the other areas of Wales that would suit tidal lagoon development.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, we all want a cleaner and greener Wales. I think it's disingenuous to say anything else, but as the UK Government has recognised, you have to take the public with you on that journey and ensure that it does not financially punish them. So, on that, Minister, will the Welsh Government be making some common-sense decisions, like the UK Government have, to ensure that the Welsh people aren't financially punished on this journey to net zero?

Julie James AC: I don’t think a Conservative Government has made any decisions that I could recommend to the Welsh public on any kind of carbon neutrality, so, the answer to that is ‘no’.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Questions now from the party spokespeople, and first, the Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, can I just take this opportunity to say thank you for finally plucking up the courage to speak with some of the anti-blanket-20-mph protestors at the Welsh Parliament last week? I've been informed by the attendees that the meeting was certainly interesting and that it was tense at times as well, with you apparently branding some of the group, and I quote, 'childish'. Do you honestly believe, Deputy Minister, that this is the way that politicians should be speaking to the people who we have been elected to serve?
Forever the patronising politician, you also, apparently, told the group that the 20 mph scheme was required to, and I quote for everyone's benefit, 're-educate Welsh drivers'. That's quite a staggering comment there, Deputy Minister. But perhaps the most interesting part of the meeting is when you apparently said that the 20 mph policy would be changed if fatalities aren't reduced. So, Deputy Minister, as delighted as I would be to see this policy axed once and for all, given that you're about to skip off into the sunset, how can you go ahead and make commitments like this, or was this simply a case of you telling people what they wanted to hear in order to get out of the meeting quicker?

Lee Waters AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I certainly won't miss this. I've been reflecting on the level of scrutiny during my time as a Minister as I prepare to return to the backbenches, and I must say that the scrutiny from the Conservatives has been really poor. I think there are a number of areas where we could legitimately be tested and challenged, and I welcome challenge. Instead, we have a regular rant, designed for social media, which does nothing to scrutinise, populated by sneers and personal derogatory remarks, which I think is beneath this Chamber. But I've now given up expecting any better.
In terms of her very partial account of a private conversation I had with the petitioners and the organiser of the most recent protest, it actually was a very cordial, constructive half an hour or more conversation. In terms of me saying they were childish, I think that, at one point, when one of them was constantly interrupting me, I said, 'That was childish, and we should have a mature conversation', which we did. So, she's quoting selectively from a private conversation, and inaccurately.
As I've said publicly, we are monitoring the roll-out of this policy. We are following the evidence. The evidence has been clear that this will reduce speeds, reduce collisions, save lives, and improve local neighbourhoods. And the results of the first six months bear that out: speeds are down, the number of people travelling within the speed enforcement threshold is over 90 per cent. So, I'm very encouraged by how it's going. The opinion poll tracking is also showing attitudes beginning to change, as indeed we anticipated they would when we set out on this path. This is a difficult area of policy development, and, again, back to the earlier question, when it comes to decisions to tackle climate change, you need to show bold leadership. And again, the Conservatives sneer at every attempt to do that.
I'm proud of what we're doing. I'm proud of my record as a Minister. I'm very grateful to have in the Chamber this afternoon members of my private office and my special adviser team, who have supported me over the last three years. I think we have been willing to tackle some of the difficult issues, which the future generations Act tells us we must—and the Conservatives supported that as well. Time will tell. It will need tweaking, it will need altering, it will need adjusting, and that's absolutely what we're doing through the review. I'm confident that, in time, we will see that this will be seen to be the right thing, and, once again, she will be seen to be on the wrong side of history.

Natasha Asghar AS: Deputy Minister, this is probably the last time you and I are going to go head to head in this Chamber on transport topics. With all due respect, I appreciate everything that you've just said there. However, you cannot deny and you cannot ignore that just under 0.5 million people have gone ahead to sign a petition wanting to rescind your ludicrous policy.
You've held this role since May 2021, and have really made your mark in that time—I'd argue, for the wrong reasons, and I'm sure you won't like me saying this. So, before you jump into your chauffeur-driven car for one last time, in relation to what you've just said, are you honestly, genuinely proud of your record when it comes to transport in Wales? Because, honestly, I'd say the public really does think the opposite.

Lee Waters AC: I'm not really sure what the question is there. I actually travel most days on my bike to work. But as it happens, I am going to go home by car tonight, because I have a large picture to take with me—I hope that's permissible. The point stands: yes, of course, this policy is contentious. Absolutely, there are lots of people who are opposed to it, and they signed a petition, which was riddled with inaccuracies, based a lot on the misinformation that her and her party put out, and are still putting out, and telling lies about our policies. I see again last week she is saying that we have banned road building in Wales, when clearly that is not factually true. And again, yesterday, we showed how we're going to adopt road schemes to make them fit for the future. We're not banning road schemes. I wish she would ban lying. I wish she would reflect on the contribution she makes to crying hate towards politicians when she contributes to a poisonous culture of language and misinformation. I think that is appalling. [Interruption.] This—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Deputy Minister, I think the language needs to be very careful in the contributions—[Interruption.]—on all sides, I agree. But I do not think that the Member is encouraging hate whatsoever, and I think that should be withdrawn.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I'm afraid that is a highly debatable point. In my view, the tone and nature—[Interruption.] The tone and nature of the contributions contribute to a personalising of this debate, which then fuels online campaigns, which are fuelled by the misinformation that Natasha Asghar continues to put out, and that has consequences for each of us, Dirprwy Lywydd. I won't withdraw, I'm afraid, because I have faced the direct consequence of that. This is a controversial and contentious policy, and, over time, I think it will be proven to be the right one.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Wewill discuss this point further. You have one final question, Natasha.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, I'll be honest with you, I'm quite disgusted by your comment just there. The fact that you've blamed me for hate—are you actually joking? But let's get back down to the questions, because, ultimately, that's what we're here to do. I want to go on a trip down memory lane and actually look at the record that you've created here in Wales in your time as Deputy Minister.
Let's start with No. 1. You've imposed blanket 20 mph speed limits across the country despite the public—[Interruption.] With all due respect, Minister, and I'm going to remind you again, this was reported to the standards commissioner, who actually said in his report that anyone who has a problem with the word 'blanket' needs to tolerate it. Once and for all—there's no hate included—tolerate it. [Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Can I remind Members, please, on all sides, that they shouldensure their voices are kept at a reasonable level, and that contributions are respectful of all others?

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Your policy is delivering a £9 billion blow to our economy, slowing people down and costing £33 million to implement.
Secondly, you're introducing congestion charges, which are going to be looming over people's heads, squeezing even more money out of people at a time when they are already having to tighten their belts.
Thirdly, banning road building in Wales, regardless of what your colleagues may say, is denying communities of much-needed infrastructure and making Wales a less attractive placeto do business. This is a fact. You've also gone ahead and made room for £3 million of funding for your former employer, Sustrans, over the last three years at a time when budgets are allegedly tighter than ever. [Interruption.] It's true. The slashing of vital funding has gone ahead for our bus sector, resulting in drastic cuts in services and alterations, leaving people from all corners of Wales stranded and isolated. We've also seen the pumping of obscene amounts of taxpayers' cash into Transport for Wales, which is still failing to deliver a reliable, effective service. And, also, Deputy Presiding Officer, there's been a continuos amount—millions of pounds again—spent straight from the public purse propping up Cardiff Airport.
Deputy Minister, these are just some of the items at the tip of iceberg; the list of blunders does go on. So, in light of what I've just said, do you want to revise your previous answers? Because this is a record to be ashamed of and really not proud of.

Lee Waters AC: I think continually repeating misinformation, false information and lies in our democratic Chamber is lamentable, and that is something to be ashamed of. This is not a blanket policy. We have not banned road building. We are not shovelling money into Transport for Wales. We are funding an upgrade for the first time since Victorian times in the most populous part of Wales to create a turn-up-and-go service, which her party supported. I have not funneled money into my previous employer. The record will show that the charity receives money from all Governments, of all colours, across the UK. It received funding before I joined them, and I've not worked for them for 10 years. And this funding she is referring to is funding for work in schools. The suggestion, which again has been taken up by online trolls, is that I am getting personal benefit from this. These kinds of remarks, and this misinformation that she keeps peddling, contribute to that culture of hate and are directed at individual populations. She needs to have some responsibility for the consequences of the words and the language she uses and the way in which she constantly speaks in this Chamber in a really unpleasant and personal way.
As I say, I shan't be missing these exchanges, but they do not add to the edification of our democracy and they don't hold me to account. There's a lot you could have said today about the way we brought in the 20 mph speed limit that would be fair criticisms. There's a lot you can say about the way that the metro project costs are increasing. There's a lot you can say about the subsidy for Cardiff Airport. There are plenty of things where there is honest debate to be had and a record to be properly scrutinised, which is the job of this Senedd. She has never partaken in any serious scrutiny. She just stands up and gives abuse.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Before I move on, can I highlight the point—? I think it is important what the Deputy Minister said. It is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that our tone and our language is respectful of everyone, not just in this Chamber, but outside this Chamber as well, so that our conduct is not being used as a means for others to attack representatives, whether it's in this Chamber, or even in council chambers and elsewhere. It is an important responsibility we all have in our contributions. For the record, I will also note and review what has been said this afternoon and will get back to all involved.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I'd like to say again what a pleasure it's been to shadow you in this role. I hope it will continue. During your tenure thus far, this Senedd has declared both climate and nature emergencies. Now, I'm proud that these were Plaid Cymru motions, but they belong to our Senedd. I know how deeply you understand the need to tackle these crises together. So, do you think that we're getting the balance right? With the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill soon to pass against the backdrop of large-scale renewable energy developments being proposed or ongoing at sites across Wales, like solar farms on sites of special scientific interest, we are going into a time of greater peril. Do you feel confident that the Welsh Government has got this balance right, and how can the incoming Cabinet ensure the balance is both found and safeguarded?

Julie James AC: It's an excellent question, Delyth, and it's been a real pleasure to have worked with you over these years as well, because we have had robust disagreements but also we have found much to be united about, and that's as it should be.
I think that is a really difficult balance to strike. We have tried very hard to get that balance right. We both want the investment, the jobs and the renewables that come with the industries we're talking about, and, frankly, we have a unique opportunity to be at the front of a global industry in floating wind here, which, given the conversation about Tata earlier, just makes you realise how much that investment is needed. But, of course, while we do that, we have an absolute obligation to make sure that that new industry is deployed in a way that is environmentally sustainable, does no harm and, actually, brings good to our world. There's no point in deploying floating wind if what it does is drag up the Celtic sea floor, for example. So, we have to be really careful about that.
We've developed a whole series of things around data capture, working with the Crown Estate, on the way that the contracts have been deployed, on the way that Natural Resources Wales has worked as part of its review of marine licensing, for example, on how we get the data, so that we can have a trial deploy and, actually, fail, so that if that data was to show that something had been wrongly placed it could be moved. I'm very keen to do that because, otherwise, we would have to wait until we had 10 years of data and we would lose that global race. But I'm also very keen to make sure that the treasures that we have in the marine environment around us are protected in that way, and we've worked hard to do that. There will be much more to do, as that data becomes available, to make sure that we do have those protections in place. But I think we've set ourselves on the right track for that, and I think the infrastructure Bill is a real piece of evidence that we're putting our money where our mouth is.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister.

Delyth Jewell AC: I am the proud species champion of the shrill carder bee, which has its habitat, of course, in the Gwent levels, and that is only one species at risk of extinction. One in 6 of our species face this threat. Wales is now, as you know, one of the most nature-depleted countries on the planet, and our environment is under increasing threats from human activities, from drivers like pollution, climate change, resource exploitation. They place enormous pressure on our precious imperiled natural world. Now, enforcement powers aren't robust enough to deal with the scale and extent of environmental law breaches across Wales. Private companies have undertaken illegal toxic sludge dumping on protected sites, water companies have illegally released sewage into Welsh water courses, without so much as a slap on the wrist, if you would talk about it in those terms. The situation is dire. I know that you care about this a great deal, Minister. Now, the upcoming Bill on environmental governance will, I hope, get to grips with the situation. But could you set out how the Welsh Government will ensure that effective repercussions are there for those who disregard environmental legislation in Wales and that these individuals are brought to justice? And is that something that you would like to see as part of your legacy, thus far, in this role?

Julie James AC: Again, an excellent question, Delyth, and there are quite a few difficult nuances in there. So, the environmental governance proposals that will be brought forward by the Government—. I've taken the draft Bill a long way, so I'm pretty sure it will arrive in the current form. We're out to consultation at the moment. The initial signs from that consultation—it's by no means complete—are that it's landed well, that the people who've worked with us think we've done a good job of reflecting their concerns, and so on. So, I'm fairly certain that we'll have something that looks pretty much like what we've got. We will, of course, have some nuances from the consultation in there. That's aimed at public authorities, not private authorities. It will, I hope, capture the water companies as well. We would ask them to voluntarily be captured anyway. There's a little bit of a problem with the way their designation is, but I'm sure we can overcome that.
One of the things that I'm sure will be debated in this Senedd when that Bill goes through is what the penalties should be for public authorities that aren't doing what they should do. I, famously, am not a fan of fining people. There is a provision in the recycling legislation, for example, to fine councils that don't meet their recycling targets. My own view, and it's a personal view, and it's always been my view, is that taking money away from public authorities to try and make them do more is doomed to failure, because all you're doing is depriving them of the resource necessary to invest. So, I do think we have to look at that very carefully. But we do also have to hold the human resources of that authority to account, if you like, and make sure that they're doing the right thing. So, that, I hope, the Bill will balance. The authority would have to respond to the supervisory authority in an appropriate way and would have to mend its ways and put its house in order. So, I would be going down that road.
With private companies, that's much more nuanced. Sometimes a fine is what should be imposed because you're taking away a profit. However, there is still an issue about investment in order to not continue the pollution. So, there will be examples—I can think of actual examples—where we've had misconnections for sewers going into rivers, for example. Actually, what's required is an investment to reconnect that in the appropriate way. So, whilst I think nobody should profit from having done it wrongly, I do also think they should be able to have the resource necessary to put it right. I'm also not in the business of pushing people out of business so that people lose their jobs.
So, as always, it's about balance, isn't it? It's about hitting the balance between enforcing, naming and shaming, and putting it right, and making sure that people don't profit from it, which I think is a big deal too.

Renewable Energy

Luke Fletcher AS: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh renewable energy industry? OQ60886

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Luke. We are determined to seize the opportunities from the transition to a renewable-based energy system. We are working with industry and the supply chain to create sustained economic benefits, retaining wealth and value in Wales. We are also leading the way through our public sector developer Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for the response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course, we know the Welsh Government is very active in this sector, but I wanted to specifically ask about the role of Government and public sector finance in de-risking renewable energy projects. One thing that came across very clear to me in the Marine Energy Wales conference, which the Minister mentioned earlier, was the sense of a need for Wales to have a coherent strategy in this specific area. So, for example, there were discussions around asset pooling and establishing dedicated assets to support budding technologies and the potential role, then, for Government here. So, some reflections from the Minister on that point would be very much welcome.

Julie James AC: Yes, I agree. I really enjoyed their conference. I've spoken at it a number of times. One of the big issues not just, actually, for renewable energy, but for biodiversity and both the nature and climate emergencies, is how we can leverage in proper private sector fiance, which is readily available across the world, in a way that doesn't greenwash. So, I'm very keen that we don't just take money off companies who are prepared to continue to pollute the world as long as they can give us some cash and do something with it. But, we also must leverage in the proper private financing that actually will allow us to do all of the things that we want to do in the way we want to do them. There is no way the Government can do that with its own resources, even at UK level. So, we need to have that private sector finance. We need to have it in a way that's both sustainable, understandable and transparent. So, we do have people working on that.
I'm a very proud member of the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance. My colleague Lee Waters was very proud to sign that on our behalf while we were up at Glasgow at the COP. We co-operate with a large range of—terrible names—sub-regional, national and city governments. Dreadful name, but you take the point. I hate the name; we've been trying to think of a better one. If you say it in German, it's ICLEI; it's much better. So, we co-operate with them, and one of the things they are currently working on and we are actively working on with them is a project with the World Bank and a number of federal banks around the world to see how we can get that openness and transparency into that private sector capital so that we can leverage it in in a way that's both sustainable and transparent, but also makes the projects that we want to do financially viable for the first time.

Gareth Davies AS: We have some fantastic renewable energy opportunities in north Wales and projects under way to bring us to our net-zero goal. We have four turbine developers working on Morlais and the Anglesey tidal energy project. These contracts were awarded by the UK Government's Contracts for Difference renewable energy auction, which gives investors the confidence to invest in carbon-neutral electricity generation, meaning we can arrive at net zero faster than the markets would otherwise permit.
In other regions in the UK, there has been investment in other sources of renewable energy, such as geothermal energy in Cornwall. This investment has the potential to attract over £50 million of investment to north Wales and has significant local job opportunities. On a smaller, domestic basis too, we have some fantastic renewable energy firms in north Wales, such as Carbon Zero Renewables, based in St Asaph in my constituency, who install and maintain solar panels fitted to people's homes to keep them working at their maximum level of efficiency. So, can the Minister outline what the Welsh Government is doing in regard to diversifying the Welsh renewable energy market more broadly so that we don't put all of our eggs into the wind and solar basket?

Julie James AC: Yes, with great pleasure. So, I had a wonderful visit with my colleague Siân Gwenllian to a hydroelectric project in your patch, I think it was, Siân, which was a really excellent example of a community that had come together to harness the power of the waterfall there. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to walk all the way to the top, but I do plan to go back over the summer to do just that. It was a community that had come together themselves but were now being able to be helped by Ynni Cymru, which is why Siân and I were there, because we're encouraging, through our work with Ynni Cymru, through the co-operation agreement, communities all over Wales to come together to exploit whatever the renewable that would suit their community is, and that's a huge range of things, actually.
I also very recently visited the Deputy Presiding Officer's community in Skewen after a terrible flood from old coal workings, but that's actually meant that we have a project on geothermal energy coming out of ex-mine workings that we're working on with the Coal Authority. That's a community that was pretty traumatised by that flooding, and I'll never ever forget the yellow marks on the wall, well above my head height, for the flood that had come through. But, the water was warm, so it's been a really interesting piece of work, to work with how we can exploit what is an industrial heritage that can, and it was a conversation between the First Minister—the previous First Minister; that's an odd thing to say, isn't it?—at FMQs yesterday, about metal mines. These things can be hazardous to human health—I think it was a Member of your benches who brought the question—but they're also opportunities, and many of them are filled with warm water, and we are definitely looking at that.
I've just discussed tidal lagoons with my colleague Mike Hedges. I'm from Swansea; it's no secret that we would very much like a tidal lagoon in our area, and, of course, we have a number of others, which I won't mention now, but we have a huge number of others. I'm very, very, very proud of the Menter Môn project in the Morlais straits, which the First Minister, I, the then economy Minister, now First Minister, Vaughan Gething, and a number of others visited last summer to see the incredible amount of energy coming in from the tidal stream there.
On the AR6, it was more successful, you're right, and I was delighted to see that, but we are encouraging the UK Government to put more of a proportion of the next round of Contracts for Difference funding into non-wind projects, actually, so that we can get some of the marine projects in particular that we have across Wales, including the tidal stream projects both in the Menai straits and in Ramsey, down in Paul Davies's neck of the woods, better funding so that they can scale up.

Flood Investment Programme

Jack Sargeant AC: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's flood investment programme? OQ60860

Julie James AC: Yes. Thank you, Jack. Yesterday, I published our flood and coastal erosion risk management programme 2024-25, unfortunately via written statement due to the pressure on Senedd time yesterday. I am delighted we are maintaining our record level of funding this year, at £75 million. This matches last year’s allocation as the highest ever annual spend on flood risk management in Wales to date.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that answer. As the Minister knows, I've been raising the issues of investment for flood prevention programmes in Sandycroft and Broughtonpretty relentlessly in the Senedd over some time now, and I was pleased to see the written statement and the announcement of money, including providing Natural Resources Wales with £800,000 to carry out capital works in Sandycroft, and a further £60,000 for flood resilience plans in Sandycroft,Broughton and Bretton. Minister, can I thank you on behalf of these communities? Those communities and livelihoods were devastated by recent floods, and the money is very welcome, but it's now important to get the work carried out as quickly as possible, and I wonder if you would use your office within the Welsh Government to ensure this happens. Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jack. I have to say I pay testimony to the sheer persistence of your enquiries on that. I very much like persistence—it's one of the qualities I feel I have myself, so I was very pleased to see that. I'm really pleased the announcement's been well received, and it really does demonstrate our continued commitment to this piece of work right across Wales. We work closely with the risk management authorities, the local authorities, to make sure that the schemes are delivered as quickly and efficiently as possible. There will have been business plans submitted, and I'm sure that we can continue to make sure that we ensure those schemes are delivered to programme. North Wales has an excellent record of delivering schemes both to budget and to programme, so I'm sure that will continue.

Renewable Energy Schemes

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister.

Jane Dodds AS: 5. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to ensuring community involvement in renewable energy schemes? OQ60882

Julie James AC: Thank you for that question, Jane. Local ownership and community involvement are front and centre of our energy policy. We've already achieved 97 per cent of our target of 1 GW of renewable energy to be locally owned by 2030. Our investment in local area energy plans provides further opportunity for communities to get involved in those schemes.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much for the response.

Jane Dodds AS: You've addressed part of my question when you were referring to the scheme that you visited with Siân Gwenllian, but one of the key challenges, when we're transitioning to green energy, is making sure the benefits are felt by local communities, because too often the profits go from large renewable energy projects and they don't stay in the local area. There are some different approaches to providing tangible benefits to communities, for example Octopus Energy have their energy Fan Club, as in fan club—if you can't see me—which allows discounted energy bills to those who are affected by their wind turbines, and when the wind is blowing, they receive money off their bills. So, I just wondered what your view was on those large companies that are coming into areas—how you would feel about them offering discounts to communities on their energy bills, for a really chunky period of time, in order to allow communities to really benefit. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jane. I would love to do that, but it's not in the rules, unfortunately. Octopus has a particular exemption from the rules. We have been working with the UK Government for some time to make sure that we can reform the energy market in order to enable us to do just that. There is a real issue with renewable energy being linked to the marginal price of gas, which is why the energy bills are so high. There's no need to have that as the way that the energy market works, but it is the way it works at the moment.
So, we do a combination of things and, in fact, I must pay tribute to Adam Price, who's tried very hard to get this into the infrastructure Bill, for reasons I completely understand, and I'm looking forward to working with you, whatever hat I have on, to make sure that we can do that in the right policy way. But what we want to do is make sure that people actually own part of each generating renewable station, whatever it is, whatever form of renewable it is, not just wind—that people actually own part of it. Because if they own part of it, they can take some of the profit from it in the form of cheaper energy. If they don't own part of it, then you're restricted to community benefits. Community benefits can be amazing, they can do all kinds of regenerative things in your area, but they can't give you cheaper energy. Although, we have been able to agree with the renewables industry that what they could do is retrofit the houses, so that they would be more efficient and effective. So, that's something we're actively pursuing at the moment, as what's actually called the gold standard of community benefits that we've been working on for a little while. In the meantime, we've been working, through the co-operation agreement, on expanding community energy as much as we can right across Wales, because only by actually owning it can you make sure that the profits are not just wholly exploited.

Youth Homelessness

Jayne Bryant AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to tackle youth homelessness? OQ60874

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jayne. We are committed to tackling all forms of homelessness and are investing almost £220 million in homelessness prevention and support services next year. This includes over £7 million specifically targeted at early identification of youth homelessness and assistance to help young people develop the life skills they need to live independently.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Weinidog. Neurodivergent young people, those who are autistic, dyslexic, dyspraxicand have other forms of neurodivergence,are at particular risk of youth homelessness. Research has shown that when neurodivergent young people become homeless, accessing services put them at further disadvantage. I recently met with End Youth Homelessness Cymru to discuss their new report 'Impossible to Navigate', which focuses on youth homelessness through the lens of neurodiversity. The report will be launched here in the Senedd on 17 April. There'll be an opportunity to speak to some of the peer researchers, and I encourage all colleagues to attend. Including neurodivergent young people as peer researchers from the very start of the research project adds real weight to its findings. Minister, what more can the Welsh Government do to increase accessibility and encourage co-production of youth homelessness services across Wales?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jayne. I'm very much aware of the report 'Impossible to Navigate', and I very much welcome its findings. We've funded End Youth Homelessness Cymru, in fact—£83,155 in 2023-24. Part of that funding was to run the youth focus groups that allowed the young people to feed into the research. I think it is absolutely central to our policy to have lived experience of the system, not just lived experience of homelessness—and I don't say 'just' in any pejorative way there—but actually of the system itself. And we've done a lot of work through our advisory panel, which had a large number of people on it with lived experience, not just on the experience of being homeless but the experience of interacting with the bureaucracy, if you like, in your attempt to recover from that position.
I think the new Bill that the Government will bring forward on ending homelessness will address much of this by embedding the co-production and lived experience parts of that in ongoing Government policy. And I think also the 'no wrong door' approach—which my colleague Lynne Neagle has championed for mental health, but which applies to all public services, of course—will also help. So, the new Bill, I hope, when it goes through the Senedd, will mean that no public authority in Wales can discharge anyone into homelessness, and that will mean that they will have to advocate on their behalf to help them through the system. So, we believe, because the young people told us so, that that would very much help, but there will be more that we can do, and I am looking forward to doing that.

Environmental Obligations

Paul Davies AC: 7. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure it meets its environmental obligations to the people of Pembrokeshire? OQ60851

Julie James AC: Thank you, Paul. Protecting our environment is a priority for the Government. We've provided the environmental regulator, Natural Resources Wales, with stringent powers to take action to regulate and enforce environmental controls at polluting activities, and the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales oversees the functioning of environmental law in Wales.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response. Now, you'll be aware of the serious environmental and public health concerns surrounding the Withyhedge landfill site in my constituency, where residents are still forced to live with horrendous odours coming from that site. Residents also have no confidence in the measures taken to monitor air quality in the area after it emerged that an employee of Dauson Environmental Group, the same group that owns the company that operates the Withyhedge site, is undertaking that monitoring work, which I find extremely worrying.
Now, I'm sure you can appreciate the concerns of residents, particularly given that this firm, as we all know, has a direct link to the incoming First Minister. Therefore, Minister, if you remain in your current role, would you be willing to meet with residents to hear their concerns and provide assurances that the Welsh Government meets its environmental obligations to the community? And what further steps can the Welsh Government take to resolve this issue for residents once and for all?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Paul. I'm very well aware of it, as you know, and we had a brief discussion about it just very recently. My understanding is that there's an enforcement notice on the site and that that requires compliance by 6 April. A number of measures are being put in place to make sure that that isn't just a date—that it's possible to comply, if you like, by 6 April—and if that compliance isn't secured, then there will be severe consequences for that. But I do absolutely understand the residents' concerns. That's an area of the world I don't live in like you do, but I visit very often, as you know, and it's not something we should be putting up with.
So, I'm pleased that the enforcement has gone ahead. We will make sure that it's vigorously enforced. I have no idea who's going to be standing where I'm standing when we next meet, but I am absolutely certain that whoever that is would be more than happy to meet the residents, and to make sure that NRW has done everything it can within its powers to put that enforcement through.
Of course, we will be bringing forward the environmental protection and biodiversity target Bill—I'm sure that won't be its title in the end, but you know the Bill to which I refer. And I'm very keen, therefore, that that Bill should make sure that it puts additional obligations on local authorities and national park authorities, which are involved in this instance, to make sure that they co-operate with making sure we don't have the kind of environmental issues we've had at that landfill site. And there's no need for it. I've visited landfill sites through a long career in waste, not just while I've been here at the Senedd. I've worked in that part of—. I was an environmental governance lawyer for a very long time, and there is no need for a landfill site to be smelly or difficult. They should be well managed, they should be piped and they should be properly capped. So, I don't think there's any excuse for it, and I'm sure that the enforcement notice will be pushed vigorously, and I really hope so for the residents in that lovely area.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, question 8, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Harbour Porpoises

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 8. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to monitor and protect harbour porpoises from threats such as entanglement in fishing nets, chemical and noise pollution, hunting, boat traffic, and lack of food? OQ60865

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. A very important question. The Welsh Government are taking a range of steps to ensure harbour porpoises are protected from threats. This includes a commitment to deliver the bycatch mitigation initiative to reduce entanglement, the fisheries management plans to deliver sustainable fisheries that provide food, and robust management of our mobile species in special areas of conservation.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. I'm really proud, because I'm the harbour porpoise champion in Wales. Three sites off the coast of Wales and south-west England have been identified as important areas for these sea mammals. They have a combined area of 16,477 km, with water depths ranging from the shallower waters along the coast down to approximately 100m. The main threats to these porpoises include getting caught as bycatch in some fishing gear, and they are also sensitive to pollution and disturbance. Natural Resources Wales have consulted on possible special areas of conservation for them. Could you clarify what progress is being made with NRW to not only protect them, but to ensure that data is collected that can be used to monitor whether measures taken will be effective in the long term? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Yes, indeed. Thank you, Janet. As I know you know, we became the first nation in the UK to roll out a free nationwide scheme for fishers to dispose of and recycle end-of-life fishing gear at a number of sites right across the country, and we’ve so far collected over 10 tonnes of that. If you think about what it’s made up of, that’s an awful lot of stuff. So, that reduces the chance of abandonment at sea, which does lead to many of the entanglements—not just, I have to say, for harbour porpoises, but for other marine mobile life, which is nearly all of it, of course.
We want to have effective management of our marine protected areas network to ensure that they’re in favourable conditions, and the principles that guide the development of that are delivered through the MPA management grant scheme. We’ve had a look at the marine codes of conduct you mentioned and the introduction of the Wales explorer app, which will allow people to tell us where they are.
You’re quite right, Janet, in saying that we don’t have all of the data that we need in order to be able to do this, and so we have actually got a data project under way. The most recent 'The State of Natural Resources Report' said that the state of harbour porpoises was uncertain because of that lack of data. So, I would encourage people, Deputy Llywydd, if they are out and about over Easter, to download the app, and if you are sighting things of that sort—and we’ll all, I’m sure, have seen the recent sightings of humpback whales off the coast of Pembrokeshire, which I personally was totally thrilled by—you can report them on the app, and so we know what the movement of those is. It’s actually quite hard to track. It might seem like it isn’t, but it is quite hard to track, and that really does help. We are very much encouraging the citizen science approach to that, and we also have specific—. We have specific—I can’t speak anymore—specific projects to get that data into useable form.
We have had the really sad incident of a harbour porpoise that was found off the cost of Anglesey in February this year that had been decapitated. We now know that the decapitation was probably after it had died, but we want to make sure that we don’t have incidents like that on our lovely beaches. [Interruption.] Somebody had removed the head, unfortunately, so we weren’t able to look at that. So, one of the reasons that I want to encourage the use of the app is we want people to report such incidents to us, so that we can make sure that we are able to look after them. If we do have beached large sea mammals of that sort, it is very important for us to understand what has happened and do that post mortem, so I would encourage people not to interfere with an animal, but just to report it if they do find it.
So, thank you very much for that question, and I’m sure we will continue, Janet, to work together on our mutual concern for that kind of marine life.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister and Deputy Minister.

3. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 3 is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Ken Skates.

North Wales Medical School

Ken Skates AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on progress in creating a North Wales medical school? OQ60855

Eluned Morgan AC: The north Wales medical school is progressing well, with students due to commence their studies this September. The General Medical Council are satisfied with progress following their stage 5 quality assurance visit in July of last year, allowing the school to proceed with student recruitment, which took place last December and this January.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, can I put on record my thanks for all of the work that you've done in pursuing this? It will make a huge difference to north Wales and the whole of the country. Would you agree that this is, specifically, exactly what we need to do in order to futureproof the Welsh NHS?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Ken. I'm really delighted with this, and to see people now being recruited directly to that north Wales medical school is really heartening. The direct intake will start this autumn and will increase to get to its maximum capacity—so, by 2029, there'll be 140 students per year. What we do know is, of the ones that have been recruited into the Cardiff school but then are placed in north Wales, around 50 per cent of them have not only stayed in north Wales, but actually stayed in Wales, but they've stayed in Betsi. It's exactly the kind of outcome we were looking for, so I'm sure Siân Gwenllian will be thrilled to hear about that as well.

Sian Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, and perhaps you can guess what I might have to say on this issue. The fact that we do have a medical school in Bangor, which will be taking its first students in September, is to be warmly welcomed, and we should thank everyone who has made the case for training doctors in north Wales. I myself raised the need for a medical school 14 times on the floor of this Senedd, and, in 2017, I recall the then prospective First Minister, when he was health Minister, saying that there was no case for a medical school in Bangor. But, there we are, perseverance has paid off, and there is a lesson for us all in that regard, I'm sure.
I am now making the case for the development of Bangor as a centre of excellence in terms of medical training, and you will hear more about this too—I will be persevering on that issue too. There is a school of pharmacy in the pipeline in Bangor, but can I ask you, isn't the next natural step, in terms of medical training in north Wales, to establish a school of dentistry in Bangor as a matter of urgency?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Of course, we'll have to see how things develop in north Wales, but could I thank Siân Gwenllian, particularly for her enthusiasm for this subject? It was a part, of course, of the Labour manifesto, and part of the programme for government, but it's good that we have been able to co-operate on this important subject.
One of the things that I've been pushing for recently is to ask—and I know that Siân Gwenllian has an interest in this subject as well—how they teach about women's health in the curriculum. And I am pleased to hear that, in the curriculum in Cardiff, work is being done—and, of course, at present, they're pursuing the Cardiff curriculum—to ensure that we do see a change in the way that doctors do treat women. So, I think that this is an important step forward, and we'll see what else develops in the future.

Gareth Davies AS: Of course, the training and development of people in north Wales is fantastic, to keep people within the region and, indeed, training to a high level. I want to specifically ask around the training and development of people and staff who are already working in the NHS. There has been progress that's been made in recent years with the training of the health and social care workers to nursing levels, but what specific work is the Welsh Government undertaking with health boards, such as Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, to get people trained up in other professions, perhaps allied health professionals, occupational therapists and physios, so we can keep breaking that glass ceiling and people within the NHS can see career development, if they so wish?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Gareth. What I can tell you is that I announced on 14 February that the investment in education and training of healthcare professionals will be maintained at £281 million, which is not a small amount of money, and, of course, the majority of that goes on people who are already working in the NHS to upskill them, to uptrain them.
Health Education and Improvement Wales, of course, gets its mandate, effectively, from the health boards themselves. So, they work out—the health boards work out—'Right, what is it that we need?' They then communicate that to HEIW and then they commission on the basis of what the health boards say they want to see. I'm really pleased to see that that has happened, and, of course, what has happened, which is, I think, very heartening, is that we've managed to maintain the level of last year for this year, despite all of the financial pressures that we're under.

Supporting Families with Disabled Children

Mark Isherwood AC: 2. How is NHS Wales supporting families with disabled children? OQ60853

Eluned Morgan AC: The operational responsibility for delivering the vital services supporting families with disabled children and their healthcare needs lies with NHS Wales. These services are provided by a range of healthcare professionals tailored to meet the complex health needs of children and young people.

Mark Isherwood AC: Last November, Professor Luke Clements and Dr Ana Laura Aiello from Leeds University's School of Law published a research report on the prevalence and impact of allegations of fabricated or induced illness, or FII, which considered the prevalence and impact on families in England, Scotland and Wales of being accused of creating or exaggerating their child's difficulties, an extreme form of parent carer blame. Professor Clements previously worked at Cardiff University for 15 years.
The research indicates that wrongful allegations of FII are at least as prevalent in Wales as they are in England and Scotland. It also highlighted the devastating impact that an FII allegation can have on the whole family, including the children who are alleged to be in need of protection, and that this has been a particular concern for autistic parents and autistic children, with mothers of autistic children 100 times more likely to be investigated for FII by children's services.
How will the Welsh Government ensure that this report's messages are understood by local authority children's services, schools and NHS practitioners across Wales, when I continue to be contacted by autistic mothers of neurodiverse children in north-east Wales who have been, and continue to be, subject to FII allegations and threatened with safeguarding proceedings?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I'd be grateful if the Member would send me a copy of that report so that I can look at it in detail. I do think that what we have to consider when it comes to children is, always, how we put their safety and their equality first, and we have to look at it through the eyes of the child. So, that's the general approach that we take in the Welsh Government, but I will ask my officials to have a look at that report, just to see if there is anything in there we can follow up.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Questions now from the party spokespeople, and, first of all, the Conservatives' spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd be grateful if the Minister could address the shocking revelation that it is taking 10 years for women suffering with endometriosis to get diagnosed. The length of time to get a diagnosis has, sadly, increased by a year since the start of the pandemic. The condition, for whatever reason, is often overlooked, with women in Wales being told by medical professionals that they were making a fuss about nothing or that all they were experiencing was simply menstrual pain, but I'm sure the Minister knows that endometriosis is an acutely painful condition that severely limits quality of life. People should not have to live with the condition untreated for this long. The Minister appointed specialist endometriosis nurses to every health board in Wales in 2022, yet the issues with misdiagnoses have got worse. So, could the Minister outline what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that cases of endometriosis are not missed or misdiagnosed by clinicians in the Welsh NHS so that women do not have to wait a decade before they receive the appropriate treatment?

Eluned Morgan AC: Great. Well, thanks very much, Gareth. This is something that I've focused quite a lot on during my time as health Minister. It wasn't a condition that I was terribly aware of before, but I'm now very aware of it. One in 10 women suffer from this very, very painful condition, and, you know, it is scandalous that it takes so long to diagnose this. What I can say is that I've been looking at what happens after they're diagnosed and how quickly people are treated. Obviously, there are waiting lists for various things, but the waiting list, once it has been diagnosed, is no longer than for other conditions, so it's the diagnosis that is the issue. It is, actually, quite difficult to diagnose without a very invasive procedure. So, there are issues around this, and one of the points that I made to Siân Gwenllian earlier is that, actually, we've now got a women's quality statement, which is looking at how we improve the quality of care for women in the health service in Wales. We've appointed a clinical lead to drive change in this area, so that there is more of an awareness, so that there's better training for people, particularly GPs, to know what the issues are, what to look out for. But the key thing is let's do it as they're training to be medics right from the beginning, which is why I've been asking specifically about are we training people to pick up on the issues around endometriosis.

Gareth Davies AS: I appreciate that ambition, Minister, but it's still the case that patients are still waiting 10 years, so I think it's going to take more than just warm words to address those more global issues, sadly. But, sadly, the failure in endometriosis diagnoses is the latest debacle in a long list of Welsh Government's failings on health more generally. This may well be the last opportunity to question you, Minister, whilst still occupying the health portfolio, so I'd be grateful to you if you could make an assessment of your success in the role. We are a year on from the Minister narrowly missing a vote of no confidence, due to her mismanagement of failings in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in north Wales, a health board that was pulled from special measures for reasons of political expediency and then placed back into special measures by this Labour Government after the election. But where are we today? And what will the legacy be of Baroness Morgan of Ely in the health Minister's role?
The Minister's legacy will be of having presided over a health service in which every single health board is in some sort of enhanced monitoring or special measures, A&E targets missed, cancer waiting targets missed, two-year waits on elimination targets missed twice. So, can the Minister tell me that, when she looks back over her time in the portfolio—and without making a single excuse if possible—does she agree with me that the health service in Wales is in much worse shape today than when you first assumed office?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I don't know who you've been speaking to, but I'd be very surprised if Vaughan Gething's been speaking to you before anybody else in the Labour group, so you may know something that I don't—we'll have to see what happens.
Let me tell you that, actually, I think there's been a huge amount of change during my term in this office. For a start, the reduction in waiting lists: the longest waits have come down for 22 months in succession. We have better outcomes in emergency departments compared to England, and that's been the case for 14 out of 17 of the past months. And the Office for National Statistics have vindicated our position, which you made such a big fuss about before, as did Plaid Cymru, about the fact that we counted differently. No, the ONS has vindicated our position and, obviously, we're still waiting for an apology from you and the BBC on that one. We've seen a massive reduction in agency costs—£55 million. We have obviously seen a change in Betsi, from a very difficult situation to a change that everybody, I think, on the ground has recognised. Even you, Gareth, have recognised that there is a change in Betsi, and it's for the good. Obviously, there's a long way to go, but stabilising a board that was in tremendous difficulties, I think, is actually one of the greatest achievements.

Gareth Davies AS: Well, I don't think I'd start claiming successes over Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Whereas I have recognised changes in the past, I think there is still a long way to go, and I think the proof is in the pudding, Minister—especially, after a decade of these false promises and warm words, the issues still exist. So, it's a case for people in north Wales that they'll believe it when they see it, sadly.
So, moving on from that, waiting times at Morriston Hospital A&E department in Swansea have been so bad this week that people have been walking out after waiting more than nine hours to be seen. The two-year waiting lists have been eliminated in England, yet there are still over 24,000 cases in Wales, over 1,300 delayed hospital discharges of the medically fit in December of last year, over 3,000 children have been on an NHS waiting list for over a year, with 1,000 of these having waited more than two years. The 75 per cent targets for cancer patients to start treatment within 62 days has never been met, sadly. And this is the legacy that the Minister will leave behind. And for every £1 spent on health in England, £1.20 is given to the Welsh Government to spend on health, yet this money has been put towards vanity schemes that no-one in Wales asked for.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Gareth, you need to ask your question now, please.

Gareth Davies AS: Certainly. Therefore, finally, does the Minister agree with me that the £120 million being spent on Senedd reform, the £20 million spent on the universal basic income pilot scheme, and the £36 million spent on the roll-out of the 20 mph would be much better placed in our NHS, which is on its knees after 25 years of your Labour Government in Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. I think there have been issues, obviously, around delayed transfers of care, which actually is the thing that generally leads to the backing-up of cases in accident and emergency departments. That’s why I’m really pleased that one of the things that I’ve really driven is working very closely with the local government officials to make sure that, through the care action committee, we have been able to, for example, last winter, provide 647 community beds, or equivalent, to prevent the need for people to be admitted to hospital and to help them leave hospital more quickly. We’ve seen a 23 per cent decrease in assessment delays; we’ve seen an increase of 76 per cent in the trusted assessor capacity, which means that that particular issue has improved. We’ve seen an increase in weekend community nursing care capacity, which obviously helps with the flow on weekends, and we’ve invested funds to increase the number of people who can have complex care needs met at home.
The two-year waiting list, as I say, has come down for 21 months in succession and we’ll see what happens later this week, but what I can tell you—. And it really is a shame that you can’t celebrate the incredible work that is done by the more than105,000 people who work for the NHS today, more than ever before. More doctors, more nurses, more allied healthcare professionals, 2 million contacts every month in a population of 3.1 million people; I think that’s a cause for celebration.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, the role of pharmacies in providing healthcare has increased significantly over recent years. But pharmacies, like all other parts of the sector, have seen a significant increase in their costs, with inflation having a particularly bad impact upon them. The ability to increase the funding coming in is very difficult. The only thing that they can control, in a way, is salaries, and if they don't see an increase in the funding coming in, then it's likely that we will see reduced hours for staff, with some pharmacies closing. And we've already seen 100 pharmacies closing over recent years.
Community Pharmacy Wales have been invited in the past to discuss the financial settlement, over the past two years particularly, but to date, they haven't received that invitation to be party to the discussions on the settlement this summer. Can we have an assurance this afternoon, as one of your final acts, possibly, as Minister, that you will ensure that Community Pharmacy Wales are part of that process to decide on the settlement over the summer?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. What I can tell you, and I'm not sure if I can crowbar in a meeting with them this afternoon, is that we have actually done some significant work with the community pharmacy service. We pay significantly more than they do in England for their work, and they are doing incredible work. What we have now is about 400,000 appointments that have been freed up, as a result of people visiting their pharmacies, and, of course, we now have one in four pharmacies that are also able to provide a prescribing service. They can treat a range of ailments—about 27 ailments in Wales, compared to about seven in England. So, that pressure is taken off GPs. But, of course, the end of the financial year is coming up, and obviously we will need to speak to them next year, but you know how restricted our financial position is.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that response. As it seems likely that this will be the final set of questions that the Minister will answer in her current role at least, I want to pay tribute to herfor her service over the past three years. It's been a very difficult period and one of the most challenging in the history of the health service. Although we have disagreed on various issues, I have no doubt about the sincerity of the Minister in discussing these issues with me. And although we may differ politically, I am entirely convinced that we are both united in the belief that the NHS should continue to be a service that is free of charge for the people of Wales.
I personally have no interest in being personal—I will have plenty of opportunity to scrutinise the Government's record over the next few weeks with the new Minister, possibly. So, in looking back over the past three years, and in the spirit of constructive political debate, what would your advice be, Minister, to your successor, in order to ensure that the provision and fundamental character of the NHS are protected and reinforced for the future?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Mabon. And could I also thank you for the way in which we've been able to collaborate in quite a constructive way, I think, and the same to Russell George, who isn't in his seat today? I think that the relationship has been a constructive one.

Eluned Morgan AC: I don't know—everybody seems to be writing me off as health Minister. You obviously know something that I don't. [Laughter.] I'll tell you what, I think there are some things that, if it were the case that I didn't carry on in this position, there are lots of things and advice, and things that I've learnt while in the role. It is a really, really tough job. I think it's really important to take a day off a week—and you won't get away with more than a day off a week, I can assure you. I think the most impressive part of the NHS is its workforce. They deliver day in, day out for the public of Wales: those 2 million contacts a month, in a population of 3.1 million, is quite, quite remarkable.
The NHS works best in a time of crisis, and that was made clear during the pandemic, but I think we do need to do some more work in relation to driving up performance, quality, safety and excellence. We'll always have to fight fire in the NHS, there will always be immediate problems that we have to resolve, but unless we shift to the prevention agenda, the NHS will be unsustainable and will not be there for future generations.
We need, I think, for the public to take more responsibility for their own health. Now, that is a very difficult conversation to have, and it's a very sensitive conversation to have, and, obviously, the state has a role to play in making it easier for people to make those good health decisions in their lives. I think focusing on a few key areas that really need attention is also something that I've found really useful: delayed transfer of care; dentistry; digital transformation; driving down the longest waiting lists. And my final recommendation is: don't, whatever you do, look at social media. [Laughter.]

Supporting General Practitioner Practices

Jack Sargeant AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government working to support GP practices in Alyn and Deeside? OQ60866

Eluned Morgan AC: The Welsh Government has invested £20 million this year to support general practice across Wales—the highest level of investment in many years. We continue to work proactively with the GP profession to ensure the future sustainability of GP services.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch, Weinidog. I recently met with a local GP surgery to discuss ongoing service provision for residents in Alyn and Deeside. I was told that, in the past two years, the practice has been, in their words, Minister, subject to unreasonable and extortionate demands from their landlord. I have real concerns about the impact this will have on the surgery's ability to provide for patients. Can I ask, Minister, what steps can the Welsh Government take to protect GP services from what many, including me, would see as deliberate profiteering from landlords? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jack. GPs are independent contractors, and many will have rental agreements with private landlords. Practices can be reimbursed by health boards for their premises' costs, as is set out in the national health service directions. Specialist estates services provide health boards with valuation advice, and they undertake triennial rental assessments in respect of all owner-occupied and leased general medical services premises, under the requirements of the 2015 directions. So, I don't think it's appropriate for the Welsh Government to engage directly with individual decisions or practices, but, obviously, if they haven't had that assessment with the specialist estates services, they need to call them in.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I want to raise the very same issue, actually, because I also met with the very same GP. We were in the same meeting last week. And the reality is that, compared to what they were paying a few years ago, it's now increased fivefold, and the reason for that is because it's a private company and because it was built through what was, of course, the private finance initiative. Now, these companies are actually fleecing the NHS, because that money—hundreds of thousands of pounds a year—isn't going to the Welsh NHS, it isn't going to the local health board, it's going to the pockets of a private company under what was, of course, New Labour's PFI. What assurances can you give us that any new capital buildings will not be subject to any kind of similar situation, where, effectively, the private sector will be allowed to fleece them in future?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, we are very challenged in relation to capital, when it comes to health. I hope the finance Minister is listening. But when it comes to funding, what I can tell you is that, actually, we have ring-fenced money specifically to develop hubs in communities. And it's not an insignificant amount of money, and what we're trying to do is to build up the relationship not just with health boards, but to put them together with other community assets, so that they become community hubs where the NHS and the GPs are based. So, that's the model we're looking to in the future, and that is a wholly state-owned approach.

Children with Chronic and Terminal Illnesses

Sarah Murphy AS: 4. What is the Welsh Government doing to support children with chronic and terminal illnesses? OQ60858

Eluned Morgan AC: The Welsh Government is strengthening national leadership and support arrangements for children and young people’s NHS care by establishing a new national clinical network and appointing a national clinical lead within the NHS executive.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you so much, Minister. I recently visited the cerebral palsy centre in Cardiff with Julie Morgan, in her capacity as the Member of the Senedd for Cardiff North, and the centre is run by Cerebral Palsy Cymru, who provide so much support and help to children and families. As you are already likely aware, it is also Cerebral Palsy Awareness Month, and a chance for us all to remember that it affects approximately 1,800 children and 6,000 adults across all of Wales. But, as it stands, Minister, they have their Better Start, Better Future project, which is about early intervention, and even though they do raise a lot of money through donations and fundraising and retail activity, this is becoming unsustainable. I also went to the Tŷ Hafan shop in Porthcawl recently—passionate staff raising money to provide holistic palliative care for children with life-limiting conditions. Again, there are more children that are needing those services now and needing their support, and funding is becoming a concern. So, considering these two visits, Minister, could you clarify what funding is currently being allocated for children with chronic and terminal illnesses in Wales? And can you tell us more about what we plan to do in the future? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. I too have visited that centre, which is quite remarkable, and the atmosphere there is wonderful. It was lovely to meet some of the children and the parents who do get support there. And can I pay tribute especially to some of the volunteers who work there? It's really a heartening place to go. But they were very clear with me on my visit, quite a while ago now, that, actually, obviously, they were facing a very challenging financial situation, as are we all. And, of course, as a charity, they are dependent on people giving their money and, of course, when there's a cost-of-living crisis that is more difficult for them. So, we understand the incredible support and what a difference this makes to families.
We are trying to make sure that we continue to support children with these lifelong conditions, but also, going beyond that, making sure, for example, that children with adverse childhood experiences are supported. We have things like the Flying Start programme and Families First. All of these things are there to support children and, obviously, we now have the new child poverty strategy, which is crucial as well. It is important for us to recognise that there are children who are particularly challenged with these very difficult life illnesses that really restrict the way that they can interact with society, and we have to be there for them.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, I have operated on many of these cerebral palsy patients and I am thankful to Sarah for raising this. Although cerebral palsyis not a terminal condition, it is a chronic condition, with over 6,000 people living with it in Wales. Cerebral Palsy Cymru supports children across Wales with their critical early intervention service, Better Start, Better Future, which maximises the opportunities to establish neurological connections that are only possible in the first two years of life. Early specialist intervention can make the difference in terms of a child learning to walk and talk, for example. Unfortunately, due to rising costs, their internationally acclaimed service is at risk. They are calling upon the Welsh Government to help protect their expert service for the next three years, giving them the time to further develop new forms of sustainable funding. They are asking—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to ask the question, please, Altaf.

Altaf Hussain AS: Yes, I will ask that. Their ask is just 0.005 per cent of the current annual health and social care budget. Minister, we're talking about a relatively tiny amount of funding, but the outcomes it delivers are immeasurable. Will you support that funding request?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. It was made very clear to me on my visit that early intervention is really, really key when it comes to being able to try and do something about the most adverse impacts of cerebral palsy. So, thank you for reminding me of that. You're quite right; if we can intervene, then we should, if we've got the ability to do so. It is an expert service. What I can tell you is that where the money goes within the health board has got to be a clinical decision for the health board itself. I cannot intervene as the health Minister and determine, within all of the calls that they have and their demands for healthcare, where specifically that goes. Because it may be that, in other areas, we don't have the experts, or we do have the experts in certain areas. We have to think about what is best for the patients, but I have to take the lead from the health board on that.

The Health Needs of Disabled Poeple

Sioned Williams AS: 5. How does the Welsh Government ensure that the health needs of disabled people are being supported? OQ60852

Eluned Morgan AC: The Welsh Government works closely with all health providers to fulfil their legal obligations under the Equality Act 2010. It scrutinies the strategic equality plans and annual equality reports of NHS organisations to measure performance and ensure that the health needs of disabled people in Wales are consistently met.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Weinidog. We heard extremely powerful testimony during the UK COVID inquiry sessions in Cardiff from disabled people's organisations regarding the mass death and real suffering experienced by disabled people in Wales during the pandemic. They told the inquiry that, despite the Welsh Government's awareness of the risks, it failed to properly plan for the crisis, resulting in, and I quote, the
'collapse of health, care and independent living services and the suspension of disabled people's rights'.
They highlighted a letter sent by the Minister for Social Justice to the Deputy Minister for Social Services in November 2020, in which the Minister admitted, and I quote, that they
'passed an Act which singles out disabled people's most basic rights as something that can be switched off when expedient to do so.'
It also, of course, highlighted the statistics in the 'Locked out' report that 68 per cent of those who died in Wales from COVID-19 were disabled people. In response to the 'Locked out' report, the Government has set up a disability rights taskforce with the aim of producing a disability rights action plan, but the plan is still not published. So, Minister, when can disabled people expect to see real cross-Government action, real change, which would mean that they would not face the same health inequalities that they suffered during the pandemic again? What assurances can you give them that their health will be better protected as you plan for future pandemics?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. I was very saddened to hear the testimony that they gave. One of the first things I did when I became health Minister was to read the 'Locked out' report, and it made for very, very sobering reading. I've got to assure you that the Labour Government takes disabled people's rights very, very seriously, and I'd like to commend the incredible work that my colleague Jane Hutt has done in this space. The disability equality forum meets twice a year to discuss key issues that members identify. I think the most recent meeting took place on 7 March, and that focused on the cost-of-living issues.
One of the things that has changed since the pandemic is that we now have health and care quality standards. They were introduced on 1 April, and as a part of the duty of quality, there is a requirement for equitable services. That is something that I know we take very seriously. I know that all three of us as Ministers have that quality statement on our wall, guiding us, because we have to be aware, when we're making any decisions, of our responsibility as Ministers to the requirements of that duty of quality. The disability rights taskforce is working to determine additional actions required to best support the rights of disabled people, and I know—my colleague has assured me—that the work on the disability rights action plan is very much under way.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I thankSioned Williams for tabling this question on the health needs of disabled people and how they are supported in Wales? At one of my community surgeries recently, a disabled individual came, and their disability involves them being in a wheelchair and making regular hospital visits. Obviously, when people suffer with a disability, they don't just suffer with that specific ailment; they often suffer with other issues as well. What I was made aware of was this particular individual hit upon a mental health need in the NHS, and they said that they found it very difficult and frustrating to be taken seriously as a disabled person, because of the inability sometimes for professionals to be able to separate the disability need from their mental health need. So, I'm just wondering what work you and the Deputy Minister are doing to ensure that disabled people's mental health needs are also taken into consideration.

Eluned Morgan AC: Obviously, there's a discussion ongoing at the moment on the development of the new mental health programme, and certainly the kinds of considerations that you're talking about will be dealt with in response to that. So, it's not something that we have forgotten. It's very much something that is front and centre of that renewal of our strategic plan in relation to mental health.

Grange University Hospital

Delyth Jewell AC: 6. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board after the wrong body was released to a bereaved family from a hospital mortuary at the Grange Hospital, Cwmbran? OQ60885

Eluned Morgan AC: These are very distressing cases, and we extend our deepest sympathies to the families involved. The health board has already taken steps to address this issue and to prevent future occurrences. We remain in close contact with the health board regarding its investigation and actions.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. I appreciate your answer.

Delyth Jewell AC: This was, as you've said, such an extremely distressing incident. I'm glad that you mentioned the support that is ongoing to the families, because I can only imagine the distress and probably the trauma that this must have caused them. Could you provide any further detail, please, on any steps you've taken to support the health board with their investigation about not just what happened but what lessons could be learned so that this doesn't happen in the future to any other families?
Lots of people I know feel that what went wrong needs to be reported publicly, not to point a finger, because I can't imagine they could have done something like this deliberately, but in order to ascertain whether other incidents could have happened. Because if two incidents happen, then what's to say it might not have happened more than that? Do you as a Government think that there should be a public inquiry into these incidents? What would be the most appropriate way of trying to ensure that these were two isolated incidents and not part of a more regrettable pattern that really can't be repeated again?

Eluned Morgan AC: I'm very sorry for the dreadful distress that has been inflicted on these families. I think it's probably worth underlining these are very rare errors, and that, obviously, we've put the health board under a lot of pressure to make sure that they are responding in the appropriate way. This is in addition to the case, of course, that was reported in November. It occurred shortly prior to the first reported case, but it's thought to have occurred in the same manner. The health board has already taken steps to address this to make sure that we won't see a recurrence of this, and they've already conducted an audit to confirm the identity of all the bodies it holds. I know that the health board is in touch with the families concerned, and we remain in close contact with the health board regarding its investigations and its actions.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'd like to thank Delyth for tabling this really important question. Minister, as I said yesterday, this is something that I've repeatedly tried to raise with you, and unbelievably—and I have to reiterate the words—that this isn't the first time a truly distressing incident like this has taken place at the Grange. Genuinely, my thoughts are with those who been affected by this. Minister, when the first incident came to light just before Christmas, we were told by the health board that they were, and I quote,
'confident that this is down to human error in an isolated case'.
Minister, sadly, it's clearly not an isolated case. I've taken up this up with the health board directly and with the health board's CEO, but it's vital that we see action from the Welsh Government and we have to see it now. How can we expect residents to have faith and confidence in our health boards when upsetting incidents like this occur not once but twice? Minister, we do need an independent inquiry to get to the bottom of these devastating incidents. To that end, Minister, will you launch an inquiry into this matter, please?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, obviously, the health board is conducting its own audit and its own inquiry. The health board I know has been in touch with the Human Tissue Authority and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales regarding these incidents, and my officials and the NHS executive remain in close contact with the health board.

NHS Dental Care

Jane Dodds AS: 7. How has the Welsh Government increased access to NHS dental care for adults and children? OQ60870

Eluned Morgan AC: Since April 2022, practices have been offered the opportunity to work under a variation of their unit of dental activity contract that enables them to focus on prevention and risk and need-based treatment. Capacity released by this shift has allowed 184,592 new adult patients and 116,894 new child patients to access to NHSdental care.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much for that response.

Jane Dodds AS: I would like to thank you for your engagement on dentistry. In contrast to the Conservatives, I feel that you have certainly supported the calls for a wider scope on dentistry; for example, you've helped with funding a dentist in Llandrindod Wells. Mid and West Wales is sometimes considered a bit of a dental desert, but that dentist has certainly helped, and there is more to be done, clearly.
I welcome the Government's commitment to reforms aimed at improving accessibility, but the pace does remain agonisingly slow. In my own county of Powys, Powys Teaching Health Board data shows that despite gradual declines, there are still 4,361 adults still waiting for an NHS dentist, and 274 children. There is one good thing to report about Powys Teaching Health Board, which is that it has a dental helpline, which is very positive. Could you just outline the thoughts you have about a national dental helpline in order to help people who are waiting for an NHS dentist to connect with potential vacancies? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jane, and thank you for keeping me on my toes on this issue. I can always be assured that this is an issue that you will ask questions about. It does make a difference, and I'd like to thank you for that. I don't think 300,000 new dental appointments in the NHS is insignificant, but as you say, there's an access gap for those who want NHS dentistry. It's not easy when so many NHS dentists have moved to the private sector, and that is a challenge for us. That's why I have asked the dental team to come up with a 10-year plan for what does this look like now, what does it look like in the future. Part of the challenge there, of course, is how we finance that, and that is one of the greatest challenges we face now.
I know that there have been concerns in the past in particular about getting dentists in the area that both you and I represent. You're quite right about Powys; it was quite good to be able to support the new dentist there. I'm delighted to see that Aberystwyth University is developing a proposal to train people in relation to dentistryin that part of the world, where there is a real challenge. And that was something I discussed with the new chair of Hywel Dda this morning, although there may be other parts of the country that are also interested in that.
The other issue that I've been pursuing recently is that I'm very concerned about the low numbers of Welsh domiciled students who are being enrolled in the only dental school in Wales, in Cardiff University—very low numbers. I had a meeting with them last week to really try and get them to the same place as the medical school in Cardiff has got to. It doesn't happen without effort, but they have given us some assurances on that, so I do hope that they will hold to the commitment that they made to me last week, which is to see an increase in the next three years so that the numbers will reach around 40 per cent of the intake, which would be a massive, massive increase. Because we do need Welsh domiciled students; they're more likely to retain their place in Wales and to be able to serve our public.

Medical Specialty Training

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 8. How is the Minister addressing the rising competition for medical specialty training in Wales, given the fixed number of training posts and the rising number of graduating doctors? OQ60862

Eluned Morgan AC: Despite the difficult financial situation, the Welsh Government has and will continue to invest in the workforce required to support our health system in Wales, and £281.98 million was invested in 2023-24, which included an additional £7.14 million for medical training places. We're going to maintain this level for 2024-25.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. So, the shortage of specialty positions for our doctors is causing us to lose valuable and committed professionals to other health boards across the UK and, more concerning, to overseas destinations, such as America and Australia. More doctors are graduating in Wales. In 2003 there were 184 Welsh graduate doctors, rising to 382 in 2013, and 410 in 2023. However, there is an extremely limited number of posts available, it seems, for training in the most vital of specialties, such as anaesthetics, cardiology, core and general surgery, emergency medicine, general practice and paediatrics. Nearly all of the over 400 graduating doctors will now be pursuing posts in these core specialties, which collectively only offer 264 places. Indeed, out of all those, only one post was unfilled last year. So, couple this with the growing appeal of Wales among doctors and the shortage of core specialties, what is the Minister doing to collaborate with external stakeholders, like the Association of Anaesthetists, to build up our capacity of specialty training?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, we have seen a significant increase in the number of medical training places in Wales, including specialty training posts. We've provided funding for an additional 55 medical students per year, in addition to the creation of the additional places provided by the north Wales programme. As I said earlier, the new north Wales medical school is going to commence their direct intake this autumn, and we're going to see, by 2029, 140 students. That is being delivered alongside increases to specialty training places. So, we've seen a 3.4 per cent increase in 2023-24, and in foundation training places, a 15 per cent increase in 2023-24, to ensure that alignment across medical training pipelines. So, we are lining it all up, I can assure you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, question 9, Carolyn Thomas.

Metastatic Breast Cancer Nurses

Carolyn Thomas AS: 9. What discussions has the Minister had with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board regarding the number of metastatic breast cancer nurses in North Wales? OQ60880

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Carolyn. And before I answer your question, I would like to pay tribute once again to the incredible campaigner Tassia Haines, who sadly passed away last week. I know the Dirprwy Lywydd gave a very warm tribute to her last week. She was a campaigner like no other I've ever met—her power of persuasion, her energy, her determination to make a difference when she knew the difficult life that she was facing, but she was absolutely determined to make a difference to other women who were suffering like her. And it really is an incredible legacy that she leaves behind, and I'd like to pay tribute to her and send my warmest wishes to her family.
I understand very clearly the issues associated with metastatic breast cancer; I've talked about my own personal family experience with metastatic breast cancer. I discussed the issue with the chair of the health board during his last review. I know it has been a top priority for NHS planning and we are investing millions of pounds in cancer services. I know, in relation to the situation in Betsi, that the board is looking—. I think they had three metastatic cancer nurses in place; my understanding is that one of those has gone and they are having a review at the moment of the situation in relation to that.

Paul Davies took the Chair.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for the answer, Minister. And I'd also like to echo my sympathy to Tassia Haines's family as well at this very sad time.
So, I've been contacted by a group of patients treated at Wrexham Maelor. As you said, they are concerned about the provision of nurses at the hospital, and the health board has indicated that a metastatic breast cancer nurse position has been vacant since last summer and the role is now under review due to financial constraints. So, how does the Minister work with health boards to ensure equity of service provision such as specialist cancer nurses within health boards right across Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Carolyn, and thanks for everything you do on behalf of your constituents in north Wales. As you say, Betsi Cadwaladr health board currently has three specialist nurse positions that support patients with metastatic breast or colorectal cancer. One of those three positions is currently vacant. And although the health board is giving careful consideration to its future, no decision has yet been made.

Paul Davies AC: I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Paul Davies AC: We'll move on now to item 4, namely the 90-second statements. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Yesterday Marshfield and District Women's Institute in my constituency hosted a birthday party to celebrate their centenary, a very impressive milestone. Life for women in Wales was very different when this group was established in 1924. The WI has evolved as our country has changed socially, politically and economically through the decades. Many local women have benefited from the friendship, support and varied learning opportunities offered through the WI. Over the last 100 years, Marshfield WI has made such a positive contribution to the local community and wider society, and it was fitting that the money raised during the raffle last night was donated to City Hospice. This desire to support local people is always evident whenever I visit Marshfield and other WI groups across Newport.
I'm really looking forward to welcoming members of Marshfield WI to the Senedd next month as part of their celebrations, and I would like to put on record today my congratulations to the current secretary, Kate Tunnicliffe, and everyone else who has given their time to this WI branch since 1924. Their commitment has ensured an important thread in the fabric of the local community life has endured.

Mark Isherwood AC: As we heard earlier, this month is the UK's Cerebral Palsy Awareness Month, when organisations across the UK come together to raise awareness of cerebral palsy, the most common disability in children worldwide, as we heard, with over 6,000 people living with cerebral palsy in Wales and a baby born every five days in Wales who will have cerebral palsy.
This condition affects posture and movement as a result of brain damage. It can also affect sensation, perception, cognition, communication and eating and drinking. It makes activities that most of us take for granted, such as walking, talking, dressing and fine motor skills, difficult to do. Today, like some colleagues, I had the pleasure of attending Cerebral Palsy Cymru's lunchtime event. They're a national centre of excellence that provides therapy to children in Wales who have cerebral palsy. Their specialist team of therapists work together to offer transdisciplinary skills so that each child benefits from their combined expertise, as well as offering a family support service. At the event, we heard from some of the families they help and how Cerebral Palsy Cymru have made a positive impact on their lives.
The charity currently receives 0 per cent support from Welsh Government or the NHS to fund their early intervention baby programme, which is currently 100 per cent funded from fundraising and retail activities. However, this is not sustainable in the face of rising costs and demand for services. As they say, and I'll conclude with this statement from them: 'We feel it's only fair that the Welsh Government contributes to a vital service, directly or via its NHS Wales funding, without which NHS Wales and social services departments would incur significantly more cost and there would be greater health inequality for disabled people in Wales.'

Delyth Jewell AC: The mining memorial garden in Senghenydd, which commemorates the miners who died in the deadly disaster in 1913, has been formally recognised at the National Mining Disaster Memorial for Wales. The garden of remembrance, opened in 2013, stands on the site of the Universal colliery, and is now a memorial not only to the 439 miners and one rescuer who lost their lives that dreadful day, but to all the untold numbers of lives cut short in mining disasters across Wales.
I would like to pay tribute to the Aber Valley Heritage Groupfor their commitment to the memorial garden and all of the hard work from volunteers that goes into its upkeep. And Llywydd dros dro, there is a campaign, I know, to secure permanent display at a local museum for the hoof of the pit pony Kildare, which was cut off following the Senghenydd explosion. Were it brought back, of course, to the valley, it would stand as a poignant reminder that a man and a boy's life was worth less than that of a horse. There is a hope locally that public authorities will look favourably on this demand, but today let us please as a Senedd all congratulate all of those who have worked to get this recognition for the memorial garden at Senghenydd, in honour of the thousands of miners who have died in colliery disasters across our nation, and with a fierce determination to keep the memory and culture of these communities as something we all can cherish. Diolch.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): National collections

Paul Davies AC: We'll move on now to item 5, a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 on national collections, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move the motion.

Motion NDM8505 Heledd Fychan, Delyth Jewell, Jane Dodds, Tom Giffard, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Sioned Williams
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that:
a) the national collections of Wales, which are under the care of the National Library of Wales and Amgueddfa Cymru, belong to everyone in Wales;
b) the collections need to be protected for future generations, while also continuing to be used to inspire and motivate people of all ages; and
c) free access to our national museums has been an undoubted success since the introduction of the policy in 2001, and that this policy is one that should be protected.
2. Notes:
a) warnings from the institutions that revenue and capital fiscal cuts endanger the national collections, due to unsuitable spaces and stores and also a reduction in the number of specialist staff who are now employed to care for them;
b) the concerns that further cuts will worsen the situation; and
c) Welsh Government responsibilities under the Government of Wales Act 2006 for our national collections.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) commission a panel of experts to establish what the danger is to the collections, and work with the institutions and the Welsh Government to implement a plan to protect them;
b) work with the National Library of Wales and Amgueddfa Cymru, and the unions that represent the staff in these institutions, to ensure their viability for the future; and
c) work with Amgueddfa Cymru to retain the free entry policy to our national museums.

Motion moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, actingPresiding Officer, and I'd also like to thank Sioned Williams, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Delyth Jewell, Jane Dodds and Tom Giffard for co-submitting the motion before us today.
I should also state clearly that many of the comments that I will make during the debate are relevant to the arts and cultural sector as a whole, and I really hope that there will be an opportunity for another debate in the future, to draw attention to the impact of the cuts on a number of other important cultural areas.
Today's debate is about something that belongs to us all, namely the national collections of Wales. And to be clear, the owners are not us as a Senedd, but rather everyone who lives here in Wales, everyone who has lived here in Wales, together with everyone who will live here, who have not yet been born.
There are millions of objects that make up the national collections, with each one being part of our story as a nation, conveying joy and sorrow; proud chapters in our history and some that are shameful; some that foster pride and are central to our identity, and others that compel us to do things differently in our present. There is something for everyone, too, from art to music, from science to the political placards of Black Lives Matter, not to mention dinosaurs, poetry, films, diaries, buildings—the range is astonishing.
And we are also lucky in terms of the workforce working with these collections at Amgueddfa Cymru, the National Library of Wales and the royal commission, not to mention those in other museums, archives and libraries throughout the country. Not only do they protect the collections, but they also bring them to life for people of all ages, through engagement work that is viewed as best practice on the world stage. They also carry out extremely important research, using the natural history collections to understand the changes in the climate, and even to discover new species.

Heledd Fychan AS: But despite the international recognition our national cultural institutions have received for their work worldwide, in using the national collections to inspire current and future generations, and to champion social justice, our own Government, unfortunately, just doesn't seem to get it. And the question everyone in the sector is asking is, 'Why?'

Heledd Fychan AS: Take, for example, Andrew Green, the former chief librarian of the National Library of Wales, who wrote an excellent article on his blog in January of this year that bore the title ‘Why is the Welsh Government at war with culture?’ He expertly outlined not just the recent funding challenges, but also the historic ones over a decade and more and how we’ve reached this point of crisis. He didn’t mince his words, and concluded, I quote:
‘Anyone who works in the cultural sector in Wales, whose life is enhanced by the arts, or who cares about their social, economic and health benefits, should be deeply worried by a government whose members can’t manage to grasp the critical importance of maintaining and improving state support for cultural bodies and individuals—especially at a time of economic difficulty and hardship. They should rethink their budget priorities before it’s too late.'
And he’s not a lone voice. Pedr ap Llwyd, who only retired from his role as chief librarian last Friday, recently shared with me comments he’d made to both the Welsh Government and the board of trustees of the National Library prior to his departure, which were equally scathing, and I quote:
‘My experiences during my tenure as CEO of the National Library of Wales have revealed a gap in the political will needed to establish and sustain a supportive environment for the protection of our history and cultural legacy.'
Let me repeat that key phrase:
'a gap in the political will.'
Ouch.
Now the Deputy Minister may recall that during one of our first exchanges during this Senedd term, back in June 2021, I asked how she intended to ensure a more central role for the arts and culture in the Government of the sixth Senedd, as compared to the fourth Senedd and the fifth Senedd, and tackle the underinvestment that has been seen for over a decade. The answer I received was as follows:
'a key part of my work is to work with the economy Minister in making sure that the cultural sector is adequately funded and is part of the key elements of the economic recovery in Wales, and they will play a key part in that.'
Well, clearly, this hasn't happened, and we're now in a situation where all of the institutions that care for our national collections on our behalf are telling us that they're not receiving the support they need to be able to continue to do this. The current chief executive of Amgueddfa Cymru, Jane Richardson, is quoted as saying:
'We shouldn't underestimate the long-lasting effect these cuts will have on Amgueddfa Cymru and the wider culture sector in Wales.'
We've been shown photos of priceless collections next to buckets overflowing with water. We've been warned about outdated electrics and inadequate storerooms. In fact, such is the seriousness of the situation at National Museum Cardiff, the infrastructure problems mean that they are fearful of failing a mechanical, electrical and plumbing inspection, which would mean closing the museum, either partly or fully, for an undefined period of time. The culture committee and many of us in this Chamber have asked why the Welsh Government is not responding. The silence has been deafening.
So today's motion is in many ways a last resort, to try and get the Deputy Minister and the Government to take action and provide the assurances that this Senedd is seeking regarding the safety of the national collections, both in terms of the buildings themselves where they are stored and in terms of the staff needed to both care for them and bring them to life. And if the Deputy Minister can't provide those assurances today, please will you support the motion and work with the institutions and an independent panel of experts to establish the risk and put in place a plan to safeguard them and secure the financial sustainability of the organisations? There is no time to waste.
All institutions are currently, and actively, going through redundancy programmes, meaning that vital skills are already being lost, with no time to put succession plans in place. In addition to losing curatorial and conservation skills, capacity will also be lost from key public-facing and behind-the-scenes roles, including cleaners, security staff, gallery, shop and café assistants, as well as education teams, to name a few. This will not only impact on the visitor experience and opening hours, but also the ability to collect. And worst of all, Welsh Government is helping to fund these redundancies.
There is a maintenance backlog of tens of millions of pounds, meaning that the buildings that house the collections risk damaging what they should be protecting. We saw what happened in Brazil, when Governments ignored warnings by curators and continued to underfund the national museum there: a catastrophic but avoidable fire where 92.5 per cent of the nation's collections was lost. How would we feel, and what would be the impact, if the same happened here?

Heledd Fychan AS: And before I conclude my opening remarks to this debate, I would also like to express my concern about the suggestion made by the Deputy Minister that the policy of free entry to our national museums should end. Could I urge you to look at the evidence and understand how damaging this would be? Since it was introduced back in 2001, this policy has been a resounding success, widening access to people who may not otherwise have engaged with the national collections, their collections. Reintroducing a charge would also have an impact on how much money Amgueddfa Cymru is able to raise or attract from other sources. This is not the solution.

Heledd Fychan AS: Our culture and our heritage matter. They aren't something nice to have when times are good; they are a vital part of our nation. I look forward to today's debate and hearing the contributions, but I also hope we will find solutions to help these vital sectors not only survive and open the doors, but flourish, and not just for us, but for future generations.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I thank Heledd Fychan for bringing this debate forward today, and in particular for her commitment to bringing this debate forward in a cross-party way, and working together on some of the wording and the language, which I know is often sometimes difficult, and I appreciate that I was a little bit difficult, but we managed to find a form of words that we all agreed on? But, whilst Heledd and I disagree on rather a lot, her commitment, I think, to the cultural sector and the arts sector is unquestionable, so thank you very much for bringing forward this debate today, Heledd.
I think Heledd put it really well that this is obviously a debate today that is ostensibly about our national collections, but there's also something to be said for the wider cultural sector, because we know, because people in the sector themselves have said, that they feel the cultural and heritage sector in Wales is in crisis, and what is that Welsh Labour Government doing about that crisis? Well, the arts council's budget has been cut, Amgueddfa Cymru's budget cut, the national library budget cut, the local culture and sports budget cut, Creative Wales cut, Cadw's budget cut and so on, and, on top of that, we've seen, just this week, the Welsh Labour Government have offered an overdue and watered down cultural strategy, three years into the term, which we now know will go forward to an eight-week consultation.
We know Amgueddfa Cymru is making redundancies, because they've been forced to find that £4.5 million that Heledd Fychan alluded to, brought by the huge financial pressures and decisions taken by this Welsh Labour Government. We know that the cultural and the arts sector here in Wales has taken a disproportionate cut in terms of the overall savings that have been made across the budget area, so I would like the Deputy Minister in her response, if possible, to explain exactly why it is this sector that seems to have borne the brunt of these cuts, and exactly whether she was that champion that we've heard before, around the Cabinet table, for this sector.I'm afraid to say this, because on a personal level I do have a lot of respect for the Deputy Minister, but we have seen, unfortunately, a prioritisation of photo ops and foreign trips over and above the needs of a sector that is so obviously in support. We've seen a propensity to hide behind that arm's-length principle, sometimes, to avoid responsibility for the decisions that are made, not by those institutions, but around the Cabinet table.
So, what we need going forward is a strong platform on which to raise our cultural brand and really support the institutions that work so hard to protect, preserve and promote our Welsh culture and our Welsh heritage. The serious concerns raised in recent months by the sector have highlighted the pressing challenges that it faces. We've heard many examples already from Heledd Fychan about the real seriousness now of the situation faced by the sector, and we need to do much, much more to secure those things that we should hold so, so dearly as a nation, because culture is something intangible; it matters to all of us. Without our culture, without our heritage, who are we as a nation? That's why I hope the Welsh Labour Government and this Deputy Minister, and anyone else who takes on the role after her, listens to this debate very seriously, listens to the voices of the people who have come out and explained the seriousness with which the Welsh Government should be taking the sector seriously, because, once our national collections are gone, once our national culture, our national heritage, is gone, what is Wales? Thank you.

Sioned Williams AS: A nation without a memory is a nation without a story, and a nation without a story is a nation without a future. That is the basic philosophical truth that underpins today's motion. Our national collections and archives tell that story, and they display and shape our identity and our understanding of our identity. In his famous book, Archive Fever, the philosopher Jacques Derrida said that dying cultures leave no archive, because the biggest secret of the archive is that it's not something static.

Sioned Williams AS: 'The archive folds the past into a differed time of much future work—it suggests a future for the past.'

Sioned Williams AS: Our archive is the future of our past. The crisis facing our national collections, under the care of Amgueddfa Cymru and the National Library of Wales, is therefore an existential crisis not only for the institutions themselves, but also for the future of our culture and for the essence of our nation.
I recently led a debate in this Chamber outlining the remarkable story of the Welsh women's peace petition, exploring its significance. It had been forgotten for almost a century, but, thanks to the work done by the national library, such a great resource for future researchers, and the citizens of Wales today and tomorrow, is now being safeguarded. I revealed in that debate that the signature of my great-grandmother was among the thousands of signatures on the petition. And, indeed, yesterday evening, in the celebration to note the end of Mark Drakeford's term as First Minister, the gift given to him was the knowledge that his own grandmother's signature had also been found on the petition. And, as a result, the First Minister, like myself, could feel that thrill of understanding that direct link between our present and our past, and all the significance of our foremothers raising the voice of Wales for peace.
Barely a couple of weeks after receiving help to prepare for that debate from a researcher at Amgueddfa Cymru, who found my great-grandmother's name, I received the heartbreaking and shameful news that she had lost her job due to the financial cuts in the sector, after 24 years of service. And she isn't the only one in her department, she said. The loss of these jobs means losing the expertise, the ability to retain, understand, interpret and share our national collections. So, how will we be able to ensure that our collections, and their impact and message, which were so powerfully illustrated by the Welsh women's peace petition, continue to influence us and future generations, if we don't have the specialist staff to do this work? And our museums and our national library are so much more than storage spaces, of course. They play a fully active role in the fabric of our communities and the development of our society.

Sioned Williams AS: Swansea's National Waterfront Museum, in the region I represent, was the first museum of sanctuary in the UK, and I have seen first-hand how the museum embeds the experience of those who are seeking sanctuary into their activities and ensures those voices are heard. The museum really crystalises how our national museum engages with, welcomes and treasures sanctuary seekers as our new citizens, citizens who enrich their work and their mission and thus our own communities.

Sioned Williams AS: I would like to conclude by talking about the importance of maintaining free access to our national museums. I attended a meeting last week with the main organisations and charities in Wales that fight for the interests of children and young people. They strongly emphasised their concerns about the impact of charging for entry to our museums on children and their families. A visit to a museum is one of the very few activities available for families and children who find it difficult to make ends meet, especially when the sun isn't shining and going to the local park or going for a walk is impossible. And the increasing cost of activities and the impact of the missing out on those activities has been identified in several recent reports, including a recent survey by the Bevan Foundation, which suggested that a significant proportion of children are being shut out of activities that are essential to their education and social development, and there is concern that the well-being of children is being seriously affected by this.
The aim of the Government's new child poverty strategy is to seek to ensure that all children and young people, regardless of their financial circumstances, have the same opportunities, can access the same services and can exercise their rights in the same way as their peers. The five objectives and five priorities of the strategy align entirely with what our museums offer through free admission. How then is removing the way that our museums provide so much, and enrich children's life experiences so much, compatible with that vital strategy, which has only just been published?
The warning is clear. If we don't support the calls in the motion before us, the price for the future of our nation will be one that we cannot afford to pay. I would like to conclude with another quote from Derrida that emphasises why I believe that:

Sioned Williams AS: 'the question of the archive is not...a question of the past...It is a question of the future, the question of the future itself, the question of a response, of a promise and of a responsibility for tomorrow.'

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you very much, Heledd, for bringing forward this debate today.

Mike Hedges AC: I will be voting for this motion today. As to the points in the motion, it is true that the national collections of Wales, which are under the care of the National Library of Wales and Amgueddfa Cymru, belong to everyone in Wales, not just those of us in the Senedd or those working in the national library or Amgueddfa Cymru. We have a duty to ensure the collections are protected for future generations, while also continuing to be used to inspire and motivate people of all ages.
Can I make a suggestion that we take them more often out into our communities? It's not the national museum or amgueddfa genedlaethol Caerdydd; it's, the same thing, Cymru—I'm not going to struggle to try and say it a second time. But it is, really. It's for all of us, and far too often you come across people working in some of these places who think it's for them, or perhaps people like them or the people living by them. It's for all of us and it's for the working class people in my constituency who live on the council estates. They've got an equal right to see these things as the people living in Lisvane in Julie Morgan's constituency.
I support free access to our national museums, which has been an undoubted success since the introduction of the policy by Labour in 2001—thank you, Rhodri—and that this policy is one that should be protected. I call in regularly to the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea, often for very short periods of time when I have a gap between events I am attending in Swansea. I will not do that if I have to pay. I'm not going to pay to go into a museum for 10, 15 minutes, but I can use that 10 or 15 minutes when I've got nothing else to do to visit the waterfront museum in Swansea. And can I say what a wonderful museum that is, and urge everyone who hasn't been there to visit?
It is important that revenue and capital cuts do not endanger the national collection due to unsuitable spaces and stores, and also a reduction in the number of specialist staff who are employed to care for them. I support the commissioning of a panel of experts to establish what the danger is to the collections, and work with the institutions and the Welsh Government to implement a plan for protecting them.
I support the call that the Welsh Government works with the National Library of Wales and Amgueddfa Cymru and the unions that represent staff in the institutions to ensure their viability for the future. We all want them to be viable for the future. We all want them to be able to be seen by people in the future, and none of us want to be remembered as the people who let those important documents or those important collections be damaged beyond repair because we didn't care. Nobody wants to be held responsible for that.
But we now reach the difficult part. We're all very good in here at spending money. Our previous First Minister must have been awfully frustrated by the fact that, every time we had a debate, people found means of spending more money. Spending money is easy. Where are you going to get it from? I often make suggestions. Many of them are from the untouchable list, and we have a very long untouchable list—that's why we've got this today—such as trains, where the Finance Committee was told that each passenger journey was subsidised by between £14 and £15 per journey. Basic farm payments—I mention them often. Three hundred and eighty one farm businesses get between £50,000 and £100,000 a year. Sixty businesses get over £100,000 per year. I support the Farmers Union of Wales's policy of capping basic farm payments. Why businesses are getting over £100,000 a year is beyond my comprehension, and it cannot be what we intend to do.
It's easy to ask for more money, but we need to look at ways of saving money in other areas, but we may need to look at ways of saving money within the museums and within the library. I think that every organisation I've ever seen has got inefficiencies in it, and I think that we need to drive out those inefficiencies. We need to protect what we all think is a very important part of our culture and our heritage, but we also need to realise that we cannot keep on spending more money on everything, because we're going to run out of money very quickly. So, let's find places to save, and let's prioritise things, because if everything's a priority, nothing is.

Delyth Jewell AC: 'We had, generation to generation, / a nation, and breathed / our very own history.'
That, according to Gerallt, is our legacy. Not only the piece of land that bears witness to our will to go on living, but the pieces of treasure that tell the torrid story of the battle.
And this is about legends, about stories. The sources of our prosperity, the catalogues of our loss. Our national collections are the treasures of our nation. They are the things that tell the stories of our history, and the danger that they face should worry us all, because of the scale of what is at stake.

Delyth Jewell AC: The culture committee heard first-hand from the national library and Amgueddfa Cymru about the extent of worry plaguing their staff about what could happen to the collections were rain to get into the buildings. We were told Amgueddfa Cymru staff often come in at night to move artworks from the walls, to place buckets to capture the rainwater that’s coming through the ceiling. This should not be happening.
Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, it has come up already, and I’m sure we were all haunted some years ago when the National Museum of Brazil caught fire—their stories going up in smoke. How easily such a devastating tragedy could befall us. How precarious our precious treasures truly are. And once gone, they would be lost to eternity, as though those stories had never existed.
Legends of loss are still told about the great library of Alexandria, where the wealth of the ancient world was held in knowledge, in memory, in print. In 48 BC the library was burned to ashes, and those treasures were taken from us. Yes, from us. Progress and chronicles were halted.In Tom Stoppard’s Arcadia, one of the characters is overcome with anguish when they learn about the magnitude of that loss, and she says, 'All those books, Septimus. All those books. How can we sleep for grief?'
Is that a loss we would want to inflict on the future generations of Wales? It is more than sleep that should be disturbed. The tales of our defiant past are at stake.

Delyth Jewell AC: The old north. Continuity of the language.

Delyth Jewell AC: The roots of our legends and our song.

Delyth Jewell AC: Because we had treasures to keep. Windows on the world around us. And the generations to come have a right to know from where they came, where their story began, because without a beginning, without origins, how in the world would they find their way, and their identity?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Our history is not a series of notable dates or the names of famous men. It's people—men and women, elderly people and children, their lives, their relationships, with all their problems and failings. That is what our history consists of. From those people who came here tens of thousands of years ago to those who are arriving in Wales today, our history and our heritage are a colourful tapestry of how people have insisted on keeping our nation, in all its imperfections, alive.
The national collections and our museums are our nation's memory—the memory of a history that has given us our shared values. Indeed, this is the foundation of what we are building here in our budding democracy, which reflects the hard histories that our forebears learnt, and enables us to work towards creating a better Wales for our children and our children's children.
Without these, then who are we? What are we? Indeed, not a nation, and it seems likely that it wouldn't be Wales, because it's that historic memory that maintained the awareness of a nation over many years when some people were trying to force us to forget and to destroy our nation. Because the first step in destroying any nation is to take away its memory.
The national treasures, therefore, are crucial in order to build on the foundation and allow us to create a better Wales. We cannot secure the well-being of future generations without showing respect to generations past, and to learn the difficult lessons that they had to go through so that we could benefit today. That is why I am supporting Heledd Fychan's excellent motion today, and that's why I'm encouraging everyone else to support it too.

Paul Davies AC: I call now on the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank all Members who've taken part in this important debate this afternoon? As has eloquently been set out in contributions, our national collections are an integral part of our heritage, and it is, of course, imperative that we work together to ensure that they are safeguarded for current and future generations.
I want to start by assuring this Senedd that I am fully aware of the challenges Amgueddfa Cymru and the National Library of Wales face in maintaining ageing buildings—challenges that are shared by institutions across the UK. And to be clear, whenever I have received requests for additional capital funding from Amgueddfa Cymru or from the national library, I have responded.
Rather than the deafening silence suggested by Heledd Fychan, I have also answered questions on this issue previously on the floor of the Senedd, in budget scrutiny, in answers to written questions, and in meetings and correspondence with Members and with the culture committee. Indeed, I was about to actually issue a written statement on this very issue when I was notified that this debate was tabled for debate today, and so my written statement was actually withdrawn. [Interruption.] Because you had requested a written statement, and I was about to issue it, but this debate took precedence over that.
And for Tom Giffard to suggest that I am more interested in foreign trips and photo calls is clearly not to understand the role of a Minister, Tom, in the support of our organisations. To see what they do and how they use the money that we provide for them, and to inform our future funding, is really important, and you really need to understand that that is the role of a Minister.
This financial year, Amgueddfa Cymru has received £5 million and the national library £2 million in capital funding through grant in aid from Welsh Government, and that's being maintained in the next financial year to address the most pressing of maintenance projects. In addition, Amgueddfa Cymru is receiving £2 million this year to tackle long-term maintenance issues, and to help develop the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum in Llanberis, and £1.25 million over three years in decarbonisation funding. The national library is also receiving an additional £250,000 for priority maintenance work this financial year, and £920,000 over the next three years for decarbonisation work—

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Will you take an intervention?

Dawn Bowden AC: —and £1.5 million over two years to develop the new collection storage. Yes, Mabon.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: You've listed a number of numbers there over a period of time. Is it enough?

Dawn Bowden AC: Probably not, and I'll come on to that in a moment.
The last financial year, of course, the library also received £0.5 million, £500,000, from us, for a new fire system to ensure the safety of its collections. And for the avoidance of any doubt, can I say for the record that I am absolutely committed to improving care of and access to our national collections for people across Wales? And I note that the motion calls for a panel of experts, for instance, to be established to look at the danger of our national collections, but what I should say is that, just last year, I actually commissioned an independent review of the collections' management at our national cultural institutions, and local and independent museums, which is due to report this month. It's considering both the digital and physical collections' management, and identifying urgent priorities and longer term options that could safeguard collections for the future.

Sioned Williams AS: Do you think it would have been better if that panel would have reported before the budget was set?

Dawn Bowden AC: To be fair, Sioned, the panel is doing its work and it's not complete. It will inform future budget decisions, I have no doubt, but it was involved in a piece of work that was not complete, so it wouldn't have been appropriate at that point in time. But what I would say is that, whoever is covering this portfolio in the new Government, will seriously consider the findings from that report, and no doubt will report back to the Senedd in due course.
And can I say a bit about digitalisation, which is also important in making the national collections more accessible to people in Wales and beyond? The Welsh Government is investing around £1.3 million over three years in digital projects, including supporting the Wales broadcast archive at the national library and digitising the national aerial photographic collection at the royal commission. In addition, by April 2025, Celf ar y Cyd will contain a fully digitised national art collection accessible to anyone, anywhere at any time.
I also agree with those Members who've made the point about the importance of the expertise of staff at these institutions. They are instrumental in ensuring that our national collections are safe and accessible, and this will, of course, be part of the consideration for the arm's-length bodies in their staffing decisions going forward. In recognition of this, I recently agreed with the Plaid Cymru designated Member that our immediate and short-term focus must be on supporting jobs, and I thank her very much for the work that we have done together on this in recent months.
The co-operation agreement funding has already been used for this purpose, and, additionally, we have agreed that funding allocated to deliver the culture strategy in the next financial year is repurposed to mitigate the impact of job losses, including at Amgueddfa Cymru and the national library. Since the draft budget was published, I have been able to confirm additional funding for both the royal commission and Cadw.
But be under no illusion; in preparing the 2024-25 budget, Ministers had to make the most stark and painful choices in the devolution era. This has been rehearsed many times on the floor of this Senedd, and we have explained the need for us to reduce budgets in areas to enable us to fully fund the NHS and front-line public services—a £1.2 billion funding gap due to this mismanagement of the economy by the UK Tory Government and 14 years of austerity.
But I'm aware, of course, of the redundancy schemes under way at the culture arm's-length bodies and the uncertainties that such situations can bring. Our commitment to social partnership is crucial at times like this, and the organisations are working closely with their trade unions during this very difficult time to support our national cultural institutions. I have found additional funding in this year's budget to pay for those current severance schemes.
I fully appreciate that safeguarding the national collections is an ongoing matter, and that's why my officials and I are in regular discussions with our national institutions about helping them to respond to the challenges that they face. I met with the chief executives and chairs of Amgueddfa Cymru and the national library only last week, and they assured me that the national collections are currently safe.
I do think it's somewhat disingenuous, I have to say, of the former chief executive of the national library, who has never raised the concerns that you have raised with me, Heledd, today. I met with him on a regular basis. He has had ample opportunity to put those concerns to me, and, in fact, he has always been gushing in his thanks and praise for the support that the Welsh Government has given to the national library.

Heledd Fychan AS: Would you take an intervention?

Dawn Bowden AC: No, I think you've had your chance, Heledd. I'm now trying to get through my speech. Without doubt, significant investment is needed to address maintenance issues at National Museum Cardiff, and I cannot believe that you think that we've been sat on our hands doing nothing about this. Our colleagues at Amgueddfa Cymru are working with us to develop a plan to help us to identify the financial support required and available over the next five years, so I think that deals with another point of the motion.
However, given the importance of the collection and the potential size of the work required, this may need to be tackled by co-operation across the Government, rather than a single department. That was an issue that was raised in budget scrutiny in the culture committee. It's an issue that I have taken on board and something that, I hope, the new Welsh Government will also take on board.

Paul Davies AC: Deputy Minister, you must now conclude.

Dawn Bowden AC: I've just got a couple more points, Chair, and I'm finished.

Paul Davies AC: Very, very quickly.

Dawn Bowden AC: To ensure their financial stability, out national organisations are having to explore all fundraising and income-generation options available to them. Given the pressure on public finances, it is vital that they maximise their own potential for revenue generation. I have to say again, Heledd, that I have never said that I want Amgueddfa Cymru to charge for entry, but I acknowledge that, in a crisis, every avenue of income generation at their disposal must be explored. That exploratory work is at an early stage, and we will be working together to strike the right balance between ensuring financial stability and continuing to make the national collections in Amgueddfa Cymru's care accessible to all. That is an issue for me that is a red line. Our national collections belong to us all, and we will continue to play our part in ensuring that they are safe for future generations. Diolch yn fawr.

Paul Davies AC: I call on Heledd Fychan to reply to the debate.

Heledd Fychan AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn. I don't know where to start on my response, because I found that very overdefensive, perhaps, as a response. Deputy Minister, you mentioned that you were about to publish a written statement; I've been asking for that written statement—. Actually, I've been asking for an oral statement in the Senedd for months. I asked in June 2021 for you to take this matter seriously. We've hardly had any oral statements about culture over the past three years. I've had to table this debate so that we could rehearse these arguments. The silence has been deafening, I have to be honest, because I've asked for assurances and I still haven't received them. You've listed the funding, and yet the crisis remains. You heard so eloquently from Sioned Williams about the actual impact of losing those key experts now. The Welsh Government are helping to fund those redundancies. This isn't something that happened overnight in terms of these challenges; it's been for a decade and more—

Dawn Bowden AC: Fourteen years of austerity, Heledd.

Heledd Fychan AS: But, before then, where was the focus on our cultural institutions? These old buildings haven't just suddenly become in need of repair.
We do need to reflect, also, on other Governments. We understand that this financial settlement has been difficult—of course it has. But the same is also true in other nations, and rather than cut funding to culture and heritage, Governments in both Scotland and Ireland are actually investing significantly more in arts and culture, with the Scottish Deputy First Minister, Shona Robinson, stating in December 2023, while presenting the Scottish budget for the next financial year:
'Our aim for opportunity is about more than economic opportunity; it is also about the opportunity for individuals and organisations to realise their potential. That is especially true of our nation’s culture.'
Even today, you may have seen the news that Ireland's Taoiseach, when resigning from his post, reflected on some of the things he's proud of achieving. He said:
'I'm happy that during my time as Taoiseach, we were able to honour my commitments to double spending on the arts, culture and sport. This is making a real difference now and will continue to do so into the future, fostering and assisting the artists and the sportsmen and women of the future.'
There are—

Dawn Bowden AC: Will you take an intervention, Heledd, on that point?

Heledd Fychan AS: You wouldn't when you were speaking, so, no. I think we do need to consider seriously the damage being done to our institutions, which is immeasurable. But it is not too late for this Government to take action. You mentioned the cultural strategy, and yes, we've been pleased to be able to work with you, but what will happen when there's no funding to support that strategy? The fact that even using that funding is inadequate and is—

Dawn Bowden AC: Can you tell us where the money comes from, Heledd?

Heledd Fychan AS: It's about choices. Because also, I don't think—

Dawn Bowden AC: Would you take the money from the NHS, Heledd?

Paul Davies AC: Order. This is a debate, not a discussion.

Heledd Fychan AS: Culture sits within the economy portfolio. You would've thought that being in that portfolio, you would've been able to realise its economic potential—to understand, for every pound spent, how much you get back. But that hasn't been happening. So, you're actually curtailing—

Dawn Bowden AC: We have to fund the NHS.

Heledd Fychan AS: No, it's not a matter of the NHS or culture. These aren't choices. It's like those questionnaires that ask, 'Do you want to have your bins emptied, or would you like a museum?' Those are not choices. We should be prioritising the richness of our culture and heritage and realising—. Because, actually, we have a future geneartions Act here in Wales. It means not operating in silos, not pitching portfolio against portfolio, but actually working, across the Government, to ensure—[Interruption.] You haven't shared in terms of making sure that we—

Dawn Bowden AC: Were you not listening to my response?

Paul Davies AC: Order. As I said, this is not a discussion, this is a debate. If the Deputy Minister wants to try to intervene, she can do so, but if the Member—[Interruption.] Order. If the Member doesn't want to take an intervention, the Member doesn't have to take an intervention.

Heledd Fychan AS: It would have been nice if you'd spoken so much about culture over the past three years. We've asked time and time again for you to make oral statements and answer questions, and yet you haven't. So, I will have this opportunity to finish this debate and ask the Welsh Government to take culture seriously, to listen to the debates we've put forward and understand all those points that have been raised.
Mike Hedges and Mabon rightly reminded us that it's not about the treasures, but it's about people. In the national collections, two of the things that I'm proudest of finding have been in the oral collections: the voice of my great-grandfather and the voice of my great-grandmother, one from my mother's side, one from my father's side. You may think about what my great-grandmother was discussing. Well, she was discussing how her mother used to prepare liver and onion. They were going for the ordinary stories, the oral traditions. So, it's not just about those treasures that we hold so dear; that archive means something to each of us and is that connection to the past. All of this is what's being lost with the expertise.
So, I do plead with the Government: please listen. I'm not politically point scoring, I am asking you to consider what's happening, how we can invest properly in our national institutions and culture and ensure that future generations benefit from them. They do amazing work—amazing, extraordinary, life changing. I saw that from working with colleagues, the amazing projects. But they can do so much more, and it's our economy that will benefit, and all of us. So, please, listen, Deputy Minister, whilst you're still in this role, engage seriously with these matters. I care about our nation's collections because they belong to each of us, and our future generations. This is not political point scoring, it's asking the Government to listen.

Paul Davies AC: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, so I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Debate on petition P-06-1367, 'Fund the removal of quarry rocks and the restoration of sand and groynes to Llandudno North Shore'

Paul Davies AC: We'll move on now to item 6 on the agenda, namely a debate on petition P-06-1367, 'Fund the removal of quarry rocks and the restoration of sand and groynes to Llandudno North Shore'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jack Sargeant.

Motion NDM8525 Jack Sargeant
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the petition P-06-1367, 'Fund the removal of quarry rocks and the restoration of sand and groynes to Llandudno North Shore’, which received 12,228 signatures.

Motion moved.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you, temporary Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to open this important debate.

Jack Sargeant AC: Often when we debate a popular local petition, I feel the need as Chair of the Petitions Committee to explain where or what we are talking about. But North Shore at Llandudno will be familiar to all of us. It's the pier, the Grand Hotel, the big wheel, all framed behind the Great Orme rising behind it. The petition, which had 10,752 e-signatures and a further 1,476 on paper, for a total of 12,228 signatures, calls for a return of the beach at Llandudno's North Shore. This petition was submitted by Councillor Ian Turner. It's titled 'Fund the removal of quarry rocks and the restoration of sand and groynes to Llandudno North Shore'. It states:  
'In 2014 Conwy County Borough Council dumped a further 50,000 tonnes of oversized and untested quarry rocks onto North Shore. This action destroyed the beach. Access for many is almost impossible, and dangerous if people try. It's a blight on the landscape, and detrimental to our main economy Tourism.'
I had the pleasure of visiting the beach with my predecessor as Chair of the Senedd Petitions Committee, the local Member of the Senedd, Janet Finch-Saunders, the lead petitioner and other local campaigners. They were keen to stress to me the ambitions they have to grow the area as a tourism destination over the next 20 years.
In her correspondence with the committee, the Minister has been very clear. Her priority is the safety of people who live there and addressing the risk of flooding. In her correspondence with the committee, the Minister has statedthat the pre-1996 groynes that were installed were, and I quote, 'ineffective in maintaining beach levels', and a cobble bank was installed to protect the area from flooding. In 2014 additional cobbles were added to replace those lost in the intervening 14 years. The Minister also announced that installing a 600m sandy beach on the North Shore has been considered, but the business case found that importing the sand would be, and I quote, Presiding Officer,
'significantly more expensive than other engineering options and would provide no additional flood protection benefits to the community.'
And I know the Minister disagrees with some that tourism suffers because of this, and I'm sure we'll hear both sides of the debate during this debate today. What is clear is that the local people feel great passion for the North Shore, and this debate will give a chance to hear their story on the floor of their Parliament. We will also hear about their desires for the area. And alongside that, we'll also hear about the engineering and financial challenges of keeping sand in a coastal area that experiences all kinds of weather and sea conditions.
Presiding Officer, I hope that through our discussion this afternoon, we can establish a clearer understanding both in the Senedd and in the local community of what might be possible, but also what the cost of that would be now and in the future. I look forward to the contributions from Members of the Senedd, and indeed from the Minister for Climate Change. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: In standing, I wish to thank the Chairman, Jack SargeantMS, and Members of the Petitions Committee, and to include Rhys ab Owen MS and Joel James MS for speaking up on this, helping it to come to Plenary. I do feel very passionate about this issue. Indeed, in 1986-87, my late father was the mayor of Llandudno, and in 1993-95, my late mother was the mayor of Llandudno, and in 2004-5, I was the mayor of Llandudno, all at a time when we had in Llandudno a sandy beach. My absolute gratitude must also go to Councillor Ian Turner, who I have to say has been quite unwell indeed. But I have to say, his determination and passion for his community has enabled this petition in the first place. I want to thank everybody who signed it, those who supported it, in all those long days that he stood in all weathers on Llandudno promenade to obtain this number of signatures. This shows the power of the Petitions Committee and it also underscores the democratic core of our Parliament, where the Welsh people lead our views.
Now, as has been mentioned, in 2014 50,000 tonnes of dirty quarry rock—not shingle, as was described in the technical information, and not cobble; this was dirty quarry rock—huge rocks, were dumped without notice or consultation; even the town councillors didn't know. Lorries started arriving on Good Friday. We managed to get them to sort of hold it back for a few days, but this was just an absolute shock to residents, the visitors, and owners—dozens of lorries turning up, just pouring out these massive rocks. There was no transparency, no accountability and no responsibility. So, we are now left with an unsightly, dangerous and inaccessible beach.
In the recent coastal defence work schemes, out of the options chosen—and I say 'options', because there was an option, and the Minister is aware of this. It was engineered, designed, and could have come forward, and included sea defence works to protect this wonderful town. Nobody wants to see this town under water and so we want to see it protected with a scheme for the next 100, 200 years. But there was an option that would see sand restored. The coastal forum wanted that. The councillors in Conway County Borough Council wanted the option to see the sand restored. However, once again, Llandudno felt it came down to the cheapest option of constructing a wall and the potential of adding more rock, and that, Minister, Members, Chair, Deputy Llywydd, is most unacceptable. It will add insult to injury and it will undermine Llandudno as queen of the Welsh resorts.The groynes and the sand that they supported broke up the tidal flow along the tidal path of the beach. They've served to protect the North Shore from the swells and sways of the Irish sea. Llandudno has the Constable bank—a large and very long sandbank that has protected Llandudno for years. But we still need help, given the climatic changes and the rise in sea levels.
Now, we all know, too, that tourism is Llandudno's main economic driver. It is the bedrock of the local economy and supports everything from hotels and holiday lets to restaurants and cafes, but we must protect, maintain and foster this important tourism trade. Now, the outline business case produced by Conwy County Borough Council itself explains that Llandudno must continue to adapt and innovate to remain a prime tourism location for people in the UK. Too often, hoteliers tell me that visitors staying, in particular children, have fallen on these rocks, causing injury. The beach is completely inaccessible now—the rock area—to children, the elderly and the disabled. Moreover, aesthetically, it is a complete eyesore. I know, Minister—and I understand your budget and everything and that you've told me time and again that sand is not an option, however what I'm asking here for today is some recognition of the significance and the value of restoring the sand to the beach, how important it is, not just to me but to the people of Aberconwy and those who choose to visit.
Talking about the importation of sand, when they've done Rhos-on-Sea and the beautiful sandy beach now in Colwyn Bay, which is just sand, that sand has actually been brought in on boats from further off the coast. So, we're not talking about importing sand, as such. I realise now that we do have a new First Minister and, obviously, no doubt a new Cabinet going forward. I would just ask whether your coastal defence team can work with the tourism department and come up with a solution that works for Llandudno that protects it as a suitable and appropriate sea defence project but also one that restores sand. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I'm very pleased to have an opportunity to contribute to this important debate because, of course, it's everyone's wish to see the sand return to the North Shore beach in Llandudno. You can't compare a pebble beach with a sand beach. That iconic image of the promenade at Llandudno without a golden beach doesn't feel right. It doesn't look right without that sweep of golden sand across it. So, in that regard, I'm sure we're all agreed on what we would like to see, and I have no doubt that the petitioners feel the same. But, of course, the difference between what we want to see ideally and what is practically possible at the moment are two very different things, unfortunately.
We have to bear in mind why the stones were placed there in the first place—as we heard—in 2014. There were winter storms that had caused flooding across the promenade, and there had to be a defence, not only for the integrity of the prom but also the town itself, the homes and businesses, from further flooding. And the current scheme will protect not only crucial infrastructure but also 5,000 businesses and homes locally. And that is the first priority for all of us, of course, and I wouldn't question that anyone could doubt that.
And the climate crisis that we're living through at the moment has highlighted the urgent need to do more to guard from flooding. In Llandudno, it's predicted that the sea level will rise by 750mm and 1,200mm within the next 100 years. That's around 1m higher when it comes to the sea level. So, in order to protect those 5,000 businesses and homes that are under threat, we must ensure that these projects are delivered.
Now, the documents that I've seen relating to the plans state clearly that, whilst the current plan costs from £6.7 million, any scheme to restore the sandy beach would cost £24 million. [Interruption.] Okay, £9.9 million, but it's more than twice as much in terms of the cost. And that, of course, wouldn't bring any additional benefits in terms of flood defence, as compared to the current scheme, because the scheme is currently working.
But there is also an environmental concern in scrapping a successful scheme in delivering what it was put in place to do. But for me, the bottom line is, as always, the financial case. You would need many millions in addition to pay for the defence of the thousands of homes and businesses under threat and to have a sandy beach. And because the economic climate, shall we say, doesn't put us in a position where there is funding available for many of our basic services, never mind these things, then that is a very challenging proposition indeed for anyone from any party, any political stripe, be they in the Government or in opposition. But—and this is an important 'but'—that is not to say that something can't be done in the future. And I do understand the argument, as I said at the outset, in terms of the aesthetic of the beach, in terms of the important contribution that would make in terms of leisure locally, tourism locally. And with all that in mind, the main message of my contribution to this debate today is to urge the Minister, if and when the financial climate is improved, that she and the Welsh Government will commit to work with the council to make restoration of the sandy beach at the North Shore in Llandudno a priority, because that would deliver what we all want to see.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'm very much in favour of sand on the beach as well—so is the council—and call upon the UK Government, who now have the levers post Brexit to do this. Welsh Government has spent record levels on rock armour to help prevent communities at risk of flooding and coastal erosion right across the north Wales coastline, but neither the devolved Welsh Government or Conwy council, under these times, following a decade of Tory austerity and massive inflationary pressures, has spare money when essential education, health, public transport and housing is under strain. I understand that at Colwyn Bay, Welsh Government made the most of European funding under the European regional development fund in order to pay for sea defences, the return of sand and all the other added value for tourism. So, that was European money that was used for that—for the economy and for the well-being benefits. Wales was a massive net beneficiary pre-Brexit of this type of funding. It helped tourism, it helped communities, it gave added value. And I remember those fantastic times of pots of EU funding that helped build education and community provision, and highways community enhancements.
Welsh Government no longer has funding for national schemes such as this. It's losing out on almost £1 billion of EU funding, and capital funding has not gone up, and it's needed to improve hospitals and education facilities. I've been told that rock armour is essential to stop Llandudno from flooding, and that hotels were unable to get insurance without it in place; I don't know how true that is, but that's what I've been told.
If sand were to be introduced to Llandudno North Shore, it would be taken away on the tide again. The sea comes right up and it would be washed back out, so it would need ongoing funding for replacement and maintenance, which is a concern, and it would have an environmental impact. Llandudno has a wonderful pier and wide promenade, which is great for walking along and for little ones to safely ride their bikes, unlike at Rhos-on-Sea. And it would be great to have some play equipment along there to further enhance it, to look at what's there. The ongoing challenge for Conwy County Borough Council is to explain to the local community the very real risk of coastal flood risk to the community, why the cobble bank is there and why it's so important.
A shared prosperity application has been made by Conwy County Borough Council to commission a report into the economic value of replacing a portion of the cobble bank with sand. A sand beach could be put on part of the North Shore as long as it was correctly modelled, designed and funded for construction, as mentioned earlier. There would be significant ongoing revenue burden, though, for the council, which does not exist currently, which is a concern. Because we're in a cost-of-living crisis, councils are at risk of bankruptcy—Conwy in particular. Health and social services are on their knees and they're really worried about the extra funding for revenue. They're really concerned about keeping up funding for Venue Cymru even at the moment. So, it's all these choices. It's a suggestion that tourism tax may be used towards funding the beach, but it could take many, many years to actually accumulate enough to fund it.
So, it's a shame we no longer have access to European funding, which was used for many benefits to do with tourism, communities' well-being and added value. Because of real-term cuts in public service funding from the UK Government to Welsh Government, lack of replacement EU funding, it's hard to see where the council or Welsh Government could source funding for added value unless the UK Government steps in, as they hold the purse strings.
It's not about—. So, when people go to vote, I'd like to think that—. They need to look at who's going to put money back into public services when they go to the ballot box. People need to consider this every time they go and vote. Thank you.

Tom Giffard AS: It's a pleasure for me to take part in this petitions debate. Last summer, as the Welsh Conservative shadow Minister for tourism, I visited Llandudno North Shore with the constituency Member for Aberconwy, Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet invited me on that visit because it was such a massive issue for the community that she represents, and it was an issue in the town that is the jewel in north Wales's crown, and clearly impacting the tourism offer there. What I saw was very obvious from the moment that I arrived. You had one very clear part, which was a sandy beach that was the Llandudno that you see on a postcard—picturesque, bustling, full of families having a wonderful time and businesses enjoying in that success. On the other side, you saw the rocky seafront, which was eerily much quieter, almost completely unoccupied. It was like a tale of two towns—two different seasons of the year just yards away from one another. And these things matter.
We've heard the difference that local businesses felt not having the traditional sandy beach has had on their ability to trade and make the most of that summer tourism season, and the stats bear that out as well. Llandudno, as one of Wales's premier tourism destinations, has seen tourism employment in the town—. It's today where it was in about 2008, with a notable decrease in 2014, when the council made the decision to put the 50,000 tonnes of rock on the beach. These are the reasons why it's no surprise to me that this petition reached the number of signatures required to trigger a debate here in the Senedd.
Quite often, these issues that matter a lot to local communities struggle to reach thresholds intended to cater to an issue of national interest, and perhaps this is something that the Petitions Committee may wish to look at in the future, to see if there are any ways to overcome an issue where the local interest is massive but the national interest may be somewhat more limited, and whether signatures can be counted in a more flexible or dynamic way, and I wonder whether, Chair, that might be a piece of work that may be picked up in the future.
But the fact that this petition not only reached but surpassed the 10,000 signatures threshold required a titanic effort on the part of the people involved in collecting them. Meeting with the man most closely involved in those efforts, it became clear why. Ian Turner was someone I was introduced to by Janet Finch-Saunders on that day at a stall located on Llandudno seafront, fitted with iPads, pictures of the front and informational documents. Ian was a one-stop shop for everything you needed to know about the issue. And it was genuinely really busy, wasn't it, Janet? In the short time that I was there, hundreds of people, I think, came up, chatted with Ian, took an interest in the issue, read documents, looked at the photos and ultimately signed that petition. He told me that he'd spent pretty much all day every day for months manning the fort at the stall, and it had taken a massive toll on him personally.
So, it's Ian that I want to pay tribute to today, because, whilst we might debate these petitions here in the Senedd for an hour or so, what we don't see are the thousands of hours and massive personal sacrifices that unsung heroes and ordinary people up and down this great country make every single day to make them happen. Without them, Welsh democracy simply wouldn't function and our Parliament would be the weaker for it. So, to Ian, and to many other volunteers who give up their time, their effort, their energy, to make their voices heard on the issues that matter to them and their community, thank you.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm very thankful to have the opportunity today to support my colleague the Member for Aberconwy, and all those that were motivated enough to sign this petition, and of course the Petitions Committee for bringing this to the Senedd today. I think it is a very important issue. We need to listen to local people when they are motivated enough to sign these petitions, as the Member just said.
I'm going to keep my contribution short because, obviously, I'm not a local Member, but I wanted to address this as a Member of the Welsh Parliament. I've been lucky enough to visit Llandudno many a time with Janet on many occasions. I too was taken down to the beach and spoke to Ian and many of the petitioners myself, and visited businesses, and you could feel the swell of support to bring back sand to the North Shore of Llandudno.
As well as visiting schools and enjoying all that Llandudno has to offer, I campaigned in the constituency as well, and all I heard, time and time again on the doorstep, was people's want and need to restore that sand to the beach. It is something that is motivating people quite a lot in your area, so it's very important that we listen to them. As Janet has already said, tourism is Llandudno's main economic driver. It's at the heart of the local economy. You just need to look at the stunning hotels that line that beautiful shoreline, and all the hotels are nestled in between the mountains and the sea. Listen to them and their voices. They want the sand back to boost not only their businesses, but that local economy. So, whatever money that you're arguing that it will cost, you will see that coming back in droves. As a mother of young children, it would be far more attractive, if that beach had sand on it, to go and visit Llandudno; even though I love it already, it would be more attractive for families coming far and wide, particularly from England into Wales.
Llandudno is arguably the jewel in the crown of the north Wales coastline.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The Naples of the north.

Laura Anne Jones AC: And I urge everyone today to support our queen of Llandudno, and also all the petitioners today. And we really need to listen to them and not just concentrate, as Heledd Fychan said in the last debate, on the financial aspect of this. We need to see and look at the bigger picture. Thank you.

Paul Davies AC: I now call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. Timber groynes were first installed on Llandudno North Shore in 1938. They were installed to manage fluctuating beach levels, which increased flood risk for the town. Following a public consultation in 1996, those timber groynes were removed, as they were ineffective. The groynes were then replaced with a shingle bank, which protects the stepped revetment of the promenade. The shingle works by breaking up the wave energy during storms. It reduces damage to the promenade and the risk of flooding caused by overtopping. Without the shingle bank, hundreds of properties in Llandudno would be at high risk of flooding.
In 2013 and 2014, Wales was impacted by significant coastal storms. I'm sure many Members here can recall huge waves, which caused enormous damage to Aberystwyth promenade, for example. Many residents of Garford Road in Rhyl were devastated by flooding caused by overtopping, resulting in the evacuation of around 140 homes, and that's why we've recently completed the East Rhyl flood alleviation scheme, which was funded through our coastal risk management programme. The scheme cost £20 million, and it will benefit 1,650 properties over its lifetime. Those winter storms that we all remember of 2013 and 2014 also impacted Llandudno North Shore. The shingle bank protected the town, but a lot of the shingle material was washed away, leaving the promenade at risk of damage and overtopping. This sudden loss of material was on top of years of erosion that had depleted the shingle defence that had been installed in the 1990s.
Following those 2013 and 2014 storms, Conwy County Borough Council, quite properly, acted swiftly to replenish the lost material. They did not, I'm sorry, Janet, dump boulders on the beach.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Oh, yes they did.

Julie James AC: And nor was it not open and transparent. A simple Google search will show you the public record that they replaced like with like. The council acted perfectly properly. They replaced like with like. The material used in 2014 was the same design specification as the existing shingle from 1996. It was even sourced from the same quarries, which is a matter of public record; you can easily look it up. It was the very same material that had protected Llandudno during the winter storms we all remember and prevented that widespread flooding. And the risk of coastal flooding is why, in 2016—. I should say as well, I think the council should be highly commended for the swift action it took, and I don't think saying it dumped rocks on the beach is particularly helpful.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: You should have been there when the lorries were there, dumping.

Julie James AC: Well, Janet, it is a matter—[Interruption.]

Paul Davies AC: Order, order. Minister.

Julie James AC: It is a matter of public record where the shingle was sourced from, what it is. You can look it up on the council's own website. I think the council acted extremely properly at the time.
The risk of coastal flooding is why, in 2016, the Welsh Government announced the start of the coastal risk management programme. The coastal risk management programme is an innovative new multimillion-pound programme of investment. Once construction is completed, the coastal risk management programme will have funded 15 schemes across Wales, worth £288 million and benefiting over 15,000 properties. The coastal risk management programme was a unique opportunity for our maritime authorities to improve the resilience of their coastal communities, keeping people safe for generations to come.
The coastal risk management programme is now drawing to a close with the three final schemes set to be awarded funding before the end of this financial year. In fact, I know now they have been funded, because I put the programme out yesterday as a written statement, which Jack Sargeant mentioned earlier in questions. One of those remaining three schemes is Llandudno. Conwy County Borough Council's business case identified a cost-effective option that works with the existing shingle bank. It provides excellent value for money. For every £1 spent on the scheme, it will provide £11 in flood benefits. This is the option that the council—the council—has taken to detailed design and intended to construct this year. The business case also identified an alternative option, which would have involved the removal of some shingle to install a 600m section of sandy beach. That alternative option is 14 times more expensive than the local authority's preferred option, and has no additional flood—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Point of order.

Paul Davies AC: No, no. There's no point of order. If you'd like to intervene on the Minister, then you're quite welcome to do so.

Julie James AC: If you want to intervene, you can intervene, yes.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The figures I've been given by the head of ERF are just under £10 million for the current scheme, and it's £19 million published in the scheme. So, that is not 14 times more. We're talking double.

Julie James AC: Llywydd dros dro, I will happily provide the figures that I'm quoting here, as a letter to the Member, which she's more than happy to—. Well, I'll place it myself in the Library; I'm very happy to do that.FootnoteLink
The point about it is that the scheme has no anticipated additional flood and coastal risk management benefit. So, the flood money that we're talking about is used to protect people from flooding. It isn't to improve tourist amenities or anything else. Spending more money on one location, to improve the amenity value, from the flood programme would simply mean that we'd diverted funding away from other communities that require flooding defence, so that would mean that other communities would flood in order to give amenity value in Llandudno.
I have to say, the tourist point here is an interesting one. I'm very familiar with Llandudno. We go there every year, and have done for years. I've swam off the coast many times. I love a cold-water swim, and it's very nice to do that there. I also went to university in Brighton, which famously has a shingle beach. It's loved. I do think that just talking it down is not a good look. It's a beautiful beach; the promenade is glorious. It is a lovely walk; it's a nice place to swim. But the point here really is that this is a flood protection programme, and it's important that we protect people from flooding with it. The amenity value is not something that a cost-effective flood defence programme can possibly be taking into account. You can have, of course—

Information further to Plenary

Paul Davies AC: The Minister must now conclude, please.

Julie James AC: Yes, certainly. I just want to acknowledge that a sandy beach can provide a cost-effective coastal defence. The recent Rhos-on-Sea programme has demonstrated that. But the difference is, as Carolyn pointed out, the beach recharge scheme at Rhos-on-Sea is demonstrated to be the best value for money and provide the flood defence.
I just want to make this one additional point quickly.

Paul Davies AC: Very quickly.

Julie James AC: Timber groynes, more importantly, are constructed from tropical hardwood; they have to be, because it's the only timber that survives the harsh marine environment. They would need to be replaced every 20 years, and you would need to chop down more tropical trees from the other side of the world in order to import them here to put the groynes in to hold the sand for only 20 years. I cannot think that that's a sustainable course of action from a flood management programme. So, although I very much thank the petitioners for bringing this petition, I think, in the circumstances, the scheme that's going forward from the council is the best. Diolch.

Paul Davies AC: I now call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful, Llywydd dros dro. I'll try and rattle through as quickly as I can, Presiding Officer. Janet reminded us in her opening of her late father and mother who chaired—as I think you heckled—the Naples of the north, Janet, and we remember them fondly, and the exchanges that you've had in the past with the Minister, and the Minister's fond memories of going pretty much every year, I think, to Llandudno, certainly during conference season. But, again, the Minister pointed out, as she has done throughout this process of the committee's work, the importance of protecting people and businesses from flooding. You referenced the flooding devastation caused in 2013, 2014, and I may be wrong, Presiding Officer, but I think that that might have been when my dad was in the role of natural resources Minister, some time ago now.
Presiding Officer, Llyr Gruffydd agreed that everyone would like a golden, sandy beach, but again recognised the protection that the current scheme offers 5,000 businesses, I think you quoted, Llyr, and, again, the financial conditions to get that level of protection, what would that take, and I think that was referenced in the Minister's explanation back to today's debate.
Carolyn Thomas talked about European funding and how that's been used elsewhere, and reminded us that it's no longer available because of Brexit, but she did pose a question to local communities, which was how can we enhance the promenade and pier that we all love, I think, in this Chamber, and I think you posed a question around play equipment, and I'm sure Members will have some views on that.
Presiding Officer, Tom Giffard, and Laura Anne Jones too, spoke about their recent visit, and I was particularly proud to go too, Janet. When I took the role as Chair of the Petitions Committee, I was keen to cover all parts of our beautiful country, and I was delighted to take up the offer to meet with local residents.
Tom, in response, said about the threshold of the signatures. What I'll say to Tom is that that work was done in this Senedd, and we came to the view that the threshold for signatures was the right threshold to meet the needs of this Parliament. But we treat every single petition, no matter how many signatures, with the seriousness it deserves. And we've seen petitions, when they reach 10,000, not always get debated—they're considered by the committee to be debated. And we've seen petitions with many fewer signatures reach the floor of this Senedd, and other avenues that the committee seeks to follow. But I will say to him that I think the work on reviewing that won't be for my chairmanship or my committee, it will be for a future committee in a future Senedd.
But to finish, Presiding Officer, just to say, Llandudno and the area around the pier has been a childhood memory for all of us in the north of Wales, and I know today's debate will have triggered some nostalgia, and I hope it gives us some food for thought about what the future does look like. I'm convinced, I think, that local Members will continue to raise these matters on the floor of their Parliament.
But just finally, Presiding Officer, can I send my best wishes to all the local campaigners and signatories of this petition for their efforts, but particularly to say to Councillor Ian Turner, who has been unwell in recent months, that this committee and the Senedd, if I may, send him and his family their best wishes, and I wish him a very, very speedy and full recovery? Diolch yn fawr.

Paul Davies AC: The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Barnett formula

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Paul Davies AC: We'll move on now to item 7, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on the Barnett formula, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM8524 Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the cross-party consensus in the Senedd around the need to reform the Welsh funding model.
2. Calls on the UK Government to bring the unfair Barnett formula to an end and to fund Wales according to need and not based on population.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Chair. The basis of our debate today is very simple, namely that Wales should be funded fairly by Westminster, and I think the fact that we have to make this case in the first instance speaks volumes about our status within this unequal union.
Fairness, of course, should be fundamental to any constitutional relationship, but the truth of the matter is that we have had to fight, and that we continue to fight, just in order to ensure that our argument is heard by those in power in Whitehall. So, there's nothing new in this, although it's clear that the aggressive attitude of the current Conservative Government to devolution, without a doubt, has made things worse recently.
We're calling for the eradication of the Barnett formula. It's been clear for some time that it's a formula that doesn't meet the needs of Wales. It's true since its inception, in all seriousness; it wasn't planned with Wales in mind. Even the architect of the formula itself, the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury at the time, Joel Barnett, has said that this was a temporary measure to help with fiscal issues in Scotland, in the period prior to the 1979 devolution referendum—that's what this formula was. And apart from a few minor adaptations, the formula has remained the foundation for the Treasury's framework for the funding of Wales since then, and bridged the pre and post-devolution ages.
The result is that the needs of Wales, which should be a fundamental factor in the way in which our resources as a union are allocated, have never been reflected fully within the current funding arrangements—a fact that was acknowledged by the UK Government itself after publication of the Holtham commission report in 2010. And when we consider all of the turbulent events that have taken place in the 14 years since the Holtham report—Conservative austerity over many years, of course, and the impact that that has had on our public services; a once-in-a-century pandemic; the deep cost-of-living crisis that we are currently living through—it has become more and more apparent over the years that the Barnett formula is well past its sell-by date. So, it was a weak, short-term solution from the twentieth century, based on the needs of another nation, now having to withstand the challenges of the twenty-first century in Wales. That's the poor deal that we currently have.
And, of course, the deficiencies of the Barnett formula itself have been a cornerstone for a broader pattern of unfairness and injustice faced by Wales over recent years. The fact that the Crown Estates assets are still not devolved, meaning that the Treasury and the royal family benefit from our own natural resources, rather than it being reinvested directly in our local communities. The fact that Westminster refuses to pay its fair share towards the restoration of coal tips, as we've discussed this week, which scar so much of our landscape and threaten so many communities. The fact that the Welsh Government has to pay the bill for dealing with RAAC in public buildings that were built way before devolution. And the most prominent and most insulting example of them all: the withholding of almost £4 billion in consequential funding for Wales from the HS2 project, despite the fact that there isn't and that there will never be an inch of track laid here in Wales.
This general theme of injustice that flows through all of those cases, and more, all emerge fundamentally from the failure to have fair and appropriate funding arrangements in place, and the Barnett formula is at the heart of that. So, the case for reform of the Barnett formula is clear, and there is cross-party consensus to look at the whole landscape in terms of funding for Wales, but it's a cross-party consensus here. Plaid Cymru Members are the only ones making the case for reform in Westminster. Now, as I say, given the record on undermining devolution itself in recent years—[Interruption.] Yes.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Mark Isherwood AC: I was just going to ask what your sister party in Scotland may have said to you about this, the Scottish National Party, where Scotland would be the loser in this. A decade ago, the leaders of Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats at national level pledged to protect it. And I agree with you: it's past it's sell-by date.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for those comments. Yes, of course, there are different attitudes in different parts of these isles, and I will refer to that as we look at the Government's amendment in a few moments' time, if I may.
But I was about to say that given the record of the Conservatives in undermining devolution itself in recent years, it's no surprise that a Conservative Government in the UK has placed barrier after barrier before any attempts to reform. But the fact that Labour too at the UK level also refuse to promise change, given the likelihood that they will be in power before the end of this year, is a cause of huge frustration. The silence of Keir Starmer on the Barnett formula and fair funding for Wales is deafening, and the clear impression I get from that—and so many voters in Wales get from that—is that he is taking Welsh votes for granted.
And that's why we are duty bound to call out the apathy of the two major parties in Westminster, so let's fight that and raise our voice in an united way as a Senedd here today. Support the motion from Plaid Cymru today. Support it without amendment. And this is why we can't support either of the two amendments.
The Conservative amendment repeats this obsession that they have with an entirely incorrect description of how funding is allocated by the Treasury. That description of Barnett giving £1.20 to Wales for every £1 spent on health and education in England, and so on, simply doesn't describe how the system currently works. Yes, there are questions, of course, about the decisions that the Welsh Government makes in terms of prioritising expenditure, but we always need to compare like with like, and you can't do it in the way that the Conservatives try to do it simplistically. We can't forget or ignore the interrelationship between expenditure on health and social care in England, and how that impacts the funding coming to Wales. Now, I understand why the Conservatives are doing this. It is playing politics and creating divisions and raising doubts about devolution, but I certainly won't fall for that, and I encourage the people of Wales not to fall for it either. Yes, there is a difference in the funding provided to English regions, to Wales, to Scotland and Northern Ireland, and it's London that receives most per capita quite often, of course. But there are so many different factors that account for that, including different needs, but the truth is that the formula doesn't provide a reflection of real need.
And in terms of the Government's amendment, we can't support it, and our intention is to abstain on it, because I'm not entirely sure what their thinking is in saying that there needs to be four-nation agreement. Of course there's a need to find fiscal systems that work for all parts of the UK, including the English regions, but is the Government seriously suggesting—and here I refer to the intervention by Mark Isherwood—is there a suggestion here that there should be a veto for one part of the UK, or one region in England, because they're unhappy with what's being proposed? The truth is that we need a bespoke solution that responds to the needs of Wales, and we can't see a situation where a Government might decide to go for one funding option because that is politically convenient for them. Let us look at our needs.
Therefore, we must insist on a fair deal, and what better way for a new First Minister to show his willingness to stand up for Wales from the very outset than by saying to his own political masters in Westminster that adhering to the current system is unsustainable and unjust? I want to hear a Welsh Labour First Minister putting Wales first and not taking 'no' for an answer from Keir Starmer, and 'no' has been taken for an answer far too readily by the Welsh Labour Government, I'm afraid.
Across the Chamber, we will disagree on where any new funding should be spent, I'm sure of that. That reflects our differences in terms of our priorities as parties and our vision, but surely we can agree on that common ground that Wales should have the necessary resource in order to deliver its potential, and to provide the levels of prosperity that people deserve, and in order to bring children out of poverty, and in order to build the kind of society that we aspire to. So, we encourage Members to support the Plaid Cymru motion today in order to send a clear message to Westminster in a united way that the status quo is no longer sustainable.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on Peter Fox to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Add as new points after point 1, and renumber accordingly:
Notes the current funding model which sees Wales receive £1.20 for every £1 spent on health and education in England, with only £1.05 reaching the Welsh NHS and classrooms.
Notes the nearly £1 billion in additional investment in Wales from the UK Government through the Shared Prosperity Fund and levelling-up funding.

Amendment 1 moved.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the amendment in the name of Darren Millar.
It would be remiss of me not to briefly reflect on the record level of funding that Wales has received thanks to the UK Conservative Government, and through the Barnett formula, albeit we would always like more. It has to be noted that Wales continues to receive record funding, with the largest block grant in the history of devolution, and this, as we know, has been supplemented by around £2.5 billion-worth of levelling-up funding. Now, reflecting briefly on the levelling-up fund, the UK Government has significantly exceeded the minimum 5 per cent it originally ring-fenced for Wales at the outset of the fund, with Wales now receiving over 9 per cent across the three rounds, coming to a total of £440 million over 28 projects. The UK Government is working in partnership with local authorities and local communities to deliver investment to ensure that local people’s priorities are funded, and this should be welcomed.
All this being said, we as a Senedd have agreed that the Welsh Government—a Welsh Government, of any colour—needs more flexibility when it comes to managing reserves and its borrowing powers, something that the Welsh Conservatives voted for here recently. And I agree that the fiscal framework, last reviewed in 2016, needs further review, and as such there does need to be a rethink as to how the Barnett formula is calculated, and further agree that Wales has unique challenges that must be addressed.
We should recognise that the Holtham review and its recommendations, which were agreed by UK and Welsh Government, made some strides in making sure the Welsh settlement was fairer via a needs-based factor. This makes sure that Wales has a funding floor that ensures that the Welsh settlement will never drop below 115 per cent of the money spent on public services in England. But we know currently that floor hasn’t had to kick in, as the current settlement is delivering 120 per cent, i.e. £1.20 for every £1 that is spent in England. However, I am not advocating for the scrapping of the Barnett formula, because to do so I feel would be unrealistic in a UK context. But I do feel that the formula should be more aligned with the specific needs of Wales and, as such, further needs-based factors should be incorporated into any revised fiscal framework and subsequent formula. It's worth noting that the current level funding at £1.20 is actually delivering—[Interruption.] Certainly.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. Do you accept the point that I made, though? If you think essentially about per capita funding, it is, more often than not, London that actually gets more funding per head of the population, and that's why it doesn't help the argument. It doesn't given an honest picture of where we're at when you talk about this £1.20 versus £1 in England.

Peter Fox AS: But it's a fact, though, Rhun. The current settlement does deliver £1.20 for every £1, and that is a fact. Where the Government choose to spend it is for them to choose. We know that, to date, they've spent a lot less than that for many years on those specific services, and, as result, we're facing the consequences of that.
It's just worth noting that that current level of £1.20, which is above the Holtham level, is delivering some £900 million per year more than if the Holtham recommendation had kicked in and it was at £1.15. But we've got to remember that the First Minister, when he agreed the updated fiscal framework, welcomed it as as a positive way forward for Wales, when it was signed back in 2016.
Just to be clear, for every £1 spent on health and education in England, Wales does receive £1.20—it's a fact. It's not a lie, it's not a distortion of the truth, or anything like that, it's just a fact. Sadly, we know that nowhere near, as I just mentioned, £1.20 has been spent. Actually, up until COVID, it was about £1.05—the auditor general said that was being spent on these areas, and the other 15p has been siphoned off and spent in other priority areas, which is where our disagreement comes along. [Interruption.] Please do.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. The other priority area it's being spent on in social services, and social services and health are interchangeable.

Peter Fox AS: Absolutely, Mike, I totally agree. I think that social services should be receiving a lot more money. Some could argue that, of the £450 million that has gone into health this time, perhaps £350 million should have gone to health and £100 million to social services, because they're all part of the same picture. However, my contention is that many other priority areas have been focused on, which move away from those key priorities, and, actually, move away from key priorities like the economy, causing massive pressure in other places. You can't unpick that overnight; it takes a long time to unpick it. But the fact is that choices were made and, I believe, the wrong choices were made.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'll come to an end. We can't get away from the fact that we do get £1.20, and we haven't been spending anywhere near it, and, as a result, our public services are struggling massively. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 2—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 2 and replace with:
Calls on the UK Government to replace the outdated Barnett formula with a new relative needs-based system agreed by all four nations, within a new fiscal agreement overseen and operated by a body independent of the UK Government.

Amendment 2moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, formally move.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The experiences of the past few months have conclusively demonstrated that Welsh public finances are on an utterly unsustainable trajectory. It is also beyond any doubt that the constraints of the Barnett formula are a major barrier to an urgent course correction in this respect. The state of the Welsh budget for the upcoming financial year illustrates in its starkest terms how poorly we are served.
The funding model we are subject to was never designed for us, and it was considered past its sell-by date decades ago. We do not dispute that the Welsh Government bears plenty of culpability for mismanaging the resources at its disposal, and this has been particularly apparent from the perspective of health and transport in recent years. But even the most fiscally prudent Governments would struggle with the fact that the Welsh Government's budget is worth approximately £900 million less in real terms than when it was first set during the most recent spending review, and that has been something that we've debated long and hard in this place over the last few months.
Furthermore, the Welsh Ministers have absolutely no recourse to dispute or negotiate this patently adverse outcome. Much like so many aspects of our status in this unequal union, the unfairness of Barnett is something we are just told to put up with. I'm sure apologists for the status quo will try to point to the exceptional circumstances of the pandemic, the war in Ukraine and the high energy prices in this context. They will, no doubt, claim that the formula does bestow some degree of continuity and impartiality in how funding is allocated across the nations of the UK.
Putting aside the fact that combined current and capital spending per head in Wales is the second lowest of all of the UK nations and utterly unsuitable for the needs of our society, the significant erosion in our spending power over the past 12 months is simply the most dramatic expression of how Barnett short-changes us. Indeed, the impact of Barnett's squeeze means that diminishing returns are an in-built component of the formula, which will become more pronounced over time, regardless of how societal needs evolve. For example, as early as 2010, the Holtham commission estimated that the gap in spending per head on Barnett-related functions had already roughly halved between Wales and England since the start of devolution.
Barnett, therefore, exemplifies the great paradox of our devolution settlement. As the range and complexity of our powers have gradually expanded in line with the democratic wishes of the Welsh people, the capacity to utilise these powers has, in several respects, contracted. Meanwhile, any additional scraps that do fall our way from Westminster's table are sporadic, inconsistent and, often, leave little time for a more strategic approach to budget planning. It is a funding model that would be unfit for the most basic and rudimentary of operations, let alone a national Parliament that represents over 3 million people.
We also need to consider how ill-equipped the Barnett formula is to address the precarious state of local government finances. After 14 years of damaging Tory-driven austerity, the threat of bankruptcy now looms large over councils across the UK. A recent survey by the Local Government Association indicates that almost one in five local authorities believes that it is likely or very likely that they will need to issue a section 114 notice in the next 24 months due to funding pressures. So far, we're, thankfully, yet to reach this point in Wales, but the scale of the issue was emphatically underlined in the recent report by the UK Public Accounts Committee, which revealed that the 22 Welsh local authorities are facing a combined debt of £5.6 billion. They will also have to deal with a £354 million funding gap during the next financial year, which could rise to £750 million by 2027-28.
It would take a work of fiscal fiction that Jeremy Hunt himself would be proud of to argue that the Barnett formula in its current form is sufficient to rectify this dire predicament. So, instead of consigning our local authorities and public finances to a highly uncertain future, we can set course for a more sustainable scenario by backing this motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Mike Hedges AC: The Barnett formula's principle is that any increase or reduction in expenditure in England will automatically lead to a proportionate increase or reduction in resources for the devolved Governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It was introduced in 1978 as a temporary measure, but temporary has become permanent.
There are two important points around the formula. The UK Government can make changes to the block grant of a devolved administration without applying the formula. It's called the 'formula bypass', and examples include the funding for city deals for both Wales and Scotland. But, really, the big winner has been Northern Ireland. They had £1 billion for the Democratic Unionist Party's support for the Tories in Westminster; they had another couple of hundreds of millions of pounds or so earlier this year to make up for the fact they were going into government again; and they've had at least two others, which I've written about in the past, where they've just been given money. It's a minimum, and if they want to give £1 billion or £300 million or £400 million to Northern Ireland, they can, but it does mean that they don't believe the Barnett formula works. If it works for everybody, it would work for Northern Ireland as well.
In theory, the formula should, over time, lead to a convergence of public spending per head across the four nations of the UK. If it is applied strictly, cash changes in per person expenditure would be equal, and what was pointed out by Peredur a few moments ago is that there was this movement to convergence, and that would have, in the next 20 years, seen full convergence. However, Wales has a higher base of public spending per head; therefore, an equal per person amount of extra money represents a smaller percentage increase for the devolved administration.
The Barnett floor works by multiplying positive funding increments to Wales not only by the comparability factor and population share, but by a further percentage increment. The formula is not intended to work in reverse, with negative funding increments, because that would simply widen the underfunding gap. It was a tremendous deal, and I think we need to thank Carwyn Jones when he was First Minister for negotiating that deal, because that stopped substantial sums of money not coming to Wales. This Barnett floor really is an underscore of defending us. Whether you think it should be higher, that's a matter of debate, but actually having it has got a huge effect.
Why does Scotland do better than Wales under the formula? Two reasons. It started from a higher per person base when it was brought in as a temporary measure. The formula results in higher per head funding in the devolved nations than in England and it's because the formula used the previous year's devolved budgets, and the devolved nations started from a higher base of public spending per head. Of course, in terms of Scotland, if you say 'poverty and deprivation', there are very few places in Europe that can compare with the east end of Glasgow. If you say 'sparsity', we have nowhere in Wales that compares to the highlands of Scotland. So, as you apply these things, Scotland tends to do very well.
Between 1998 and the mid 2000s, Scotland's population grew very slowly and in some years it didn't grow at all, it was a negative. Whilst it's bad for your country and while it's bad for the total amount of money you get, it's really good for the amount of money you get per head. Comparability percentages measure the extent to which a UK Government department's services are devolved. It caps the extent to which spending by a UK Government department corresponds to services provided by devolved administrations. Comparability percentages range from 0 per cent for things like defence to 100 per cent for things like health. I think that that is a useful position to look at—how some are better than others. Population proportion calculates the relative population proportions, and the UK Government's concern, in most cases, is England only, so the proportion of the English population is used. A calculation is carried out for each UK department and the amount reached is added to the devolved administration's block grant.
What's the alternative to Barnett? What does a post-Barnett Wales look like? Wales would get its tax take, its Barnett share of national borrowing and its Crown Estate money. It would pay its population share on Westminster Government spend and keep the rest. This would be worse for Wales, but this is what independence looks like. Or there would be a needs-based formula. As the local government formula showed, calculating a needs-based formula can be controversial. The Welsh Government has called for a new relative needs-based system within a comprehensive and consistent fiscal framework for all Governments in the UK. The discussion we need is about how to get a needs-based framework to work. Some figures are easier, such as sparsity, numbers over 80 and the number of schoolchildren by age group. The more difficult figures are relative poverty and deprivation, where proxies would have to be used. Any change dealing with need would also have to include the English regions. What we need is a computer modelling of the formula to work out which is the best for both Wales and the rest of the UK. The Welsh Government should ask the Treasury to undertake this work, or commission a university to do it itself.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: When it comes to making the case for funding Wales according to its needs, it's worth reflecting on what those needs are. The most recent census showed that Wales is the nation with the highest age average in the UK, and it's a population that is likely to grow older over coming years. Indeed, by 2031, almost a third of the population will be over 60 years of age and around 12 per cent over 75 years of age. We've discussed the implications of these trends in terms of the impact of this on our health and care systems many times. But we must also consider this in the context of the ability of our society to cope with these additional demands.
In considering that the latest census showed that the population of Wales had increased by only 1.4 per cent in the decade between 2011 and 2021—the smallest increase in all of the nations of the United Kingdom—along with with the fact that fertility rates in Wales have been consistently below the replacement threshold of 2.1 births for the last 50 years, this all points towards a workforce that will shrink, which will, in turn, reduce the tax base. It's clear that the current funding system is entirely unsustainable and something has to change. And the truth of the matter is that things will get worse.
Of course, these challenges aren't unique to Wales, particularly in the western world. We need only look at Japan and South Korea to look at similar demographic impacts. But those nations have the ability to change their fiscal policies in order to adapt to those problems. Here, we are reliant on a restricted pot of funding that is shrinking in real terms and is based on a failed formula that doesn't reflect our needs. That is why this servile attitude from Government to wait and see what might come from a Keir Starmer Government is so very frustrating.
There is one thing that characterises the Labour Government since the beginning of devolution, namely mañana. When I lived in Guyana, a country in South America, the term they would use there was 'soon come'. 'Mañana' is the term that's closest to it, and that is a Government that is constantly waiting for tomorrow, that doesn't feel that they have any real control over things and will wait to see what tomorrow holds, and we have a mañana Government here.
Perhaps, in reality, that isn't entirely true of everyone in the Cabinet, and I'm going to go on a slight tangent here. I want to refer specifically to two politicians who are in the Government that will end today, namely Julie James and Lee Waters. I want to pay tribute to them for being politicians that have shown ambition and leadership during their terms of office, and we will see what part they will have to play within Government. But it's difficult for them to justify their ambition because there isn't sufficient budget available to deliver those ambitions, and that is directly as a result of the fact that we don't have control and we don't have a fair settlement.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: And this is why the wait-and-see approach adopted by Welsh Ministers when it comes to the intentions of Keir Starmer's Government is not good enough. We need firm commitments of change right now, not the arrogant complacency and the tepid business-as-usual approach that has so far characterised every facet of Starmer's attitude towards Wales.
Let's turn to another issue of critical relevance to this debate, namely the high rates of long-term sickness in the Welsh workforce. As we all know, economic inactivity has been a recurring theme in the Welsh economy throughout the devolution era, and it's fair to say that successive Welsh Governments have struggled to get to grips with the issue. The latest ONS data shows that the inactivity rate in Wales is 26.2 per cent, the second highest of all the UK nations and regions, with health-related reasons accounting for a substantial proportion of this figure.
So, once again, we're confronted with the stark consequences of our resources not being aligned with the needs of the Welsh people, and in this particular instance we're caught in a vicious circle due to the relationship between economic inactivity and low productivity, which, in turn, has been such a barrier to the emergence of a Welsh economy that can truly deliver on improved standards of living and well-being. The truth is it's more expensive to provide healthcare and social care to older, more rural and impoverished communities. Of this, there is no doubt. I therefore strongly believe that the replacement of the Barnett formula should be regarded as a vital investment in the future health of our nation, and that's why I'm urging Members today to vote for this motion.

Sioned Williams AS: We have talked a lot about fairness today, and we've heard about how the deficiencies of the Barnett formula are a reflection of the lack of fairness that permeates our society and contributes to it.Of course, the consequences of this fundamental unfairness in the real world are at the heart of the social justice agenda, and they underline the extent to which Westminster's political priorities too often fail to meet the needs of the people of Wales.So, how does this social unfairness express itself in our society and in the everyday lives of our people?
Well, it's not fair that foodbanks are necessary in a developed economy, but that's the reality for thousands of people across our country, with the use of foodbanks having increased by 37 per cent over the last few years. It's not fair that households have to suffer from cold and dampness, a lack of hot water and a lack of means to cook a hot meal during the cold winter months, but that's the reality for around 196,000 households across Wales who are currently designated as being in fuel poverty. It is not fair for a child to be born into a life of poverty, but that is the reality facing 28 per cent of children in Wales at the moment, and it's not fair for households with the fewest resources at their disposal to suffer the worst health outcomes, but that is the reality across so many health issues, including long COVID, mental health provision and conditions such as diabetes, obesity and chronic respiratory illnesses. It's not fair that vulnerable individuals do not receive the care that they need from society, but that's the reality facing so many disabled and elderly people in Wales at the moment, as essential social services are cut to the bone. And it's not fair that your likelihood of achieving success in life is adversely affected by your ethnic background, your gender or your sexuality and the intersectionality of all these characteristics, but that is the reality in so many aspects of our society where structural inequalities remain far too common and harmful.

Sioned Williams AS: And let's be absolutely clear, these aren’t unavoidable by-products or side effects of a lack of sufficient resources. Rather, they are a damning indictment of the warped and unjust priorities of our political system, and the unfair, unbalanced union of which we are unfortunately a part. Once again, there are many ways of demonstrating this, but I was particularly struck by a recent analysis that showed the four biggest commercial banks in the UK recorded profits of £44 billion last year, which was partially a result of high interest rates on reserves issued by the Bank of England as part of its strategy to reduce inflation. The fact that the Bank of England’s returns on its own bond purchases were lower than these rates of interest necessitated the UK Treasury to make up the shortfall, which effectively means that taxpayers have funded this major windfall for private banks. So, there is absolutely no basis to the all-too-often excuse that we hear from both Labour and Conservative politicians that giving Wales the tools to address its deep-rooted social inequalities is somehow unaffordable.
I don’t pretend that simply replacing the Barnett formula with a needs-based model will be an instant panacea in this respect, but it is undoubtedly a step in the right direction, and we need to be honest with voters that the current arrangements will only keep us standing still on a path to a fairer and more equal society where everyone will have the opportunity to thrive. Moral outrage at the social unfairness it fuels without demonstrating the political courage to act to change that is just so much dishonest empty rhetoric. Welsh people deserve better from those who have such an influence on the quality of their lives and on the hope they can feel for the future, and progressive university parties just need to put their money where their mouth is.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much and thank you to Plaid Cymru for tabling what's a really important and interesting debate this afternoon. It's clear that the current UK funding model doesn't work for Wales. Less than a month ago, this Senedd voted unanimously in favour of the UK Government giving the Welsh Government greater fiscal flexibilities to deliver better outcomes for people in Wales, and I thought that was a really important moment where we came together with cross-party agreement to demonstrate that we all feel very strongly and united on this particular issue, and I thought that showed some real political maturity and pragmatism, and identifying those areas of common ground that we can work on together, I think, is really important, and if we can do that more in the field of finance, that can only be a good thing.
There were lots of different views and opinions raised in the debate this afternoon, and whilst I don't agree with all of them, I will say—[Interruption.]—just a moment—that there were definitely some glimmers of common ground that we could potentially look to work on further together. Mabon.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thanks for taking the intervention. You mentioned that you welcome the fact that, as a Senedd, we were united in calling for that change. Since then, what have you as a Government done in approaching the UK Government to change the policy, and, more than that, have you managed to influence Keir Starmer to promise to change the Barnett formula once a Labour Government is installed?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, I'd just remind colleagues that the Conservatives are in Government, so it's been the Conservatives who I have been approaching on this instance. So, I have written to the UK Government reflecting the cross-party agreement that we had, but also, in last week's meeting of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, I was able to report to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury again that we had cross-party agreement on that important issue. So, I'd just make it clear that I have shared that message with the UK Government about our cross-party agreement. And if we can find further areas—and I do think there is scope for that—we can do that.

Rebecca Evans AC: And the motion today recognises that it's not only the flexibilities that are insufficient, but there's also a need to reform that funding model as a whole. The Barnett formula has seen some important reforms in the way that it's applied in Wales and, interestingly, most recently in Northern Ireland. And they addressed the Barnett squeeze, which would otherwise tend to drive relative funding per person towards the level in England. Without those reforms, such convergence would have no regard for need and would lead to unsustainable levels of devolved funding in future. However, the funding system for devolved Governments remains one that is characterised by quick fixes and inconsistent approaches, and it doesn't offer any sense of stability or certainty for planning and delivering public services. Indeed, as Mike Hedges set out for us, the Barnett formula was only ever intended to be a temporary measure.
So, it is true that the Welsh Government receives around £1.20 for every £1 spent in England on equivalent programmes. There are good reasons why that should be the case, reflecting our greater demographic, economic and health challenges, and, of course, our older and more rural populations. So, put simply, it just recognises that we need higher funding levels to deliver the same level of public services because our demography and rurality and so on just mean that it simply costs more to do the same.
So, Wales does have a dispersed settlement pattern. Around 33 per cent of our population lives in rural areas, compared to just 18 per cent in England. And as we've heard, we also have an older population than England, and our population cohort aged between 16 and 64 is projected to increase more slowly in Wales than in England over the next decade. Higher levels of spending on economic and social infrastructure are needed to make Wales a more attractive place for business investment and employment creation. The latest HM Treasury statistics show that identifiable expenditure per person in Wales in 2022-23 was 11 per cent higher than the UK average. Spending on health and social services was 15 per cent higher than in England and higher than in Scotland and in Northern Ireland, and spending per person on education was 8 per cent higher than the UK average. But, of course, care should be taken in making comparisons.
In addition to an outdated funding formula, the UK Government's levelling-up schemes are failing our people, our businesses and communities here in Wales. Not only have we lost nearly £1.3 billion in EU replacement funds in real terms, but the so-called levelling-up funds have also been beset by UK Government delays, poor design and unrealistic spending deadlines, and this is creating significant pressure on local authorities, with the duplication of provision, poor value for money and also leaving stakeholders confused or entirely excluded.The chaos has been highlighted by many independent organisations and, indeed, cross-party groups, including the UK Public Accounts Committee last week, where the chair called the UK Government's levels of delay 'absolutely astonishing', adding that the UK Government is struggling to get money out of the door and has changed the rules for funding mid process, wasting time and money and hindering transparency. To deliver the outcomes that Wales deserves, it is vital that these funds are replaced in full and are returned to the Welsh Government and this Senedd, in line with our devolution settlement.
As set out in 'Reforming our Union: Shared governance in the UK', the UK Government must replace the outdated Barnett formula with a new principle-based approach to UK funding and fiscal networks, taking account of relative need. And that approach should be agreed by all four nations and set within a new fiscal agreement that is, importantly, overseen and operated by a body that would be independent of the UK Government. And that's what informs our amendment today. But, as Mike Hedges set out, undertaking that work to create that new system would be very complex, but I don't believe it's beyond the wit of people to create a system that is fairer and that doesn't disadvantage one part of the United Kingdom. So, that would be fairer but also more efficient and effective, and it would help reduce the distortions and inefficiencies that arise from the current system. It would enable a more rational and transparent allocation of public spending across the UK, and it would foster a more collaborative and constructive relationship between the UK Government and the devolved Governments.
The Welsh Government remains committed to supporting the people, businesses and communities of Wales, but the problems associated with the current funding model do present us with unnecessary challenges. So, I am hopeful that we can agree today that the replacement of the Barnett formula in the way described in 'Securing Wales' Future' is in our nation's best interest and the collective voice of this Senedd can send a clear message to the UK Government that this would be good for Wales.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Minister and thanks to everybody that's taken part in this debate today. I don't think I need to re-rehearse the arguments that we've heard—we've heard some very, very strong cases made today about why we absolutely and fundamentally need to look again at the whole funding structure and the funding relationship between UK Government and Wales. I'll focus on what unites us in this debate in my few closing comments. I know better than to expect the Conservatives to drop their mantra that Wales is awash with funding thanks to the benevolence of the UK Government, but I will make a wild prediction here that they will change their minds after the next election, whether or not there is any change in the funding mechanisms or indeed in funding levels themselves.
I equally predict that Labour will morph from thinking that the woeful levels of spending we currently have aren't quite as bad when there is a Labour Prime Minister and a Labour Chancellor, as we expect there to be before the end of this year. But this party political view of spending for Wales, the fact that it is possible to take that kind of fickle party political view on whether spending levels are adequate, whether mechanisms work, tells us everything that we need to know: that it's time to look again at how Wales is funded and the rules around public spending, borrowing, use of reserves, the whole area of the fiscal flexibilities that we seek, and, of course, the review of Barnett. So, I'm pleased that we do have consensus and the Senedd will speak again today in calling for that review.
The question that Mabon asked the Minister, though: 'What has been done since we last expressed this view?' We've talked of consensus today and this is consensus between my party and yours in Government. I'm sorry to the Conservative benches, you're not part of this one, but the finance Minister and myself, we're looking forward very much to seeing the change of Government in terms of getting rid of the Conservatives. But what I see also is a lack of commitment by the incoming Labour Government to make a difference to the funding situation that we face, and that tells me that we need the Plaid Cymru opposition at Westminster to be as strong as it possibly can be to hold the feet to the fire of whoever is in No. 11 and No. 10 Downing Street.
And I ask the Minister—. Yes, you have written to the current UK Government, but they're on their way out. I want you to flex your muscles with the incoming Government that you hold so much hope in. And I ask the incoming First Minister, sitting next but one to you, to flex his muscles and not to accept 'no' as an answer, which I'm afraid the Labour Government in Wales has been willing to accept far too often. So, if we're not heard at Westminster, well, it again tells us all we need to know about Wales's place in this unequal union. Please support this motion today.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Voting Time

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. The first vote will be on item 5, a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21. And I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. In favour 27, seven abstentions, 16 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv)—National collections: For: 27, Against: 16, Abstain: 7
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next vote is on item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If the motion is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Barnett formula. Motion without amendment: For: 11, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call now for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Barnett formula. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 13, Against: 37, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call now for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, 11 abstentions, and 13 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Barnett formula. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 13, Abstain: 11
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8524 as amended:
To proposethat the Senedd:
1. Recognises the cross-party consensus in the Senedd around the need to reform the Welsh funding model.
2.Calls on the UK Government to replace the outdated Barnett formula with a new relative needs-based system agreed by all four nations, within a new fiscal agreement overseen and operated by a body independent of the UK Government.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 13 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Barnett formula. Motion as amended: For: 37, Against: 13, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And before we leave for business, we've had confirmation that the palace has accepted the nomination of Vaughan Gething as First Minister. [Applause.]

9. Short Debate: A national plan for flood resilience

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: We now move on to the short debates, and the first short debate will be from Carolyn Thomas on a subject that she has chosen. If Members are leaving, please do so quietly. Carolyn, over to you.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have given a minute of my time to Heledd, Mike, Llyr and Mabon.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Carolyn Thomas AS: With more frequent monsoon-like rainfall, we need to build flood resilience with a national plan. Flooding can happen very quickly, sometimes overnight. The first time my home was impacted, I was woken in the early morning by a neighbour who wanted to alert me to the fact our pet rabbit had drowned, so we could remove him from the run before our children woke up. I was shocked to see a river of water pouring off the highway down our drive, swelling into the garage, and water falling down the steps in the garden, where the force knocked over a brick wall to rejoin the nant at the back of our garden, and it was devastating for the children and for all of us. And this was because of a blocked culvert on private land further up the road, and it could have been prevented.
It happened again during storm Babet, because again it wasn't maintained. A neighbour has been out of her property for approximately five months now, staying in a hotel over Christmas, nowhere to cook, nowhere to wash up. Her daughter's a nurse who’s also been struggling, and she's desperate to have her home back. Council drainage officers visited the landowner to reiterate that he is responsible for keeping the drains clear on his land. He said that the council needed to maintain the stream higher up, which sent debris to the culvert, blocking it, but it turns out he owns that land too. A nearby resident had presumed it was up to the rivers authority—I don't know who they are nowadays—to maintain the water course. There is so much confusion and denial of responsibility. When other areas are flooded in Sandycroft and Broughton, residents have asked, 'How is responsible? Where is the issue?', so they can be vigilant and know who to contact. Often insurance companies need to know that it could be preventable in the future before they will pay out these days, and discussions are live again about a national underground asset register to map out ownership of pipes and cables. We could do with a similar plan of who owns drainage, ditches, culverts and small water courses, starting with those areas that are impacted most by flooding. And I think that would be a really good plan for councils to take forward with Natural Resources Wales.
Councils have asked for help to promote landowner responsibility under riparian law, and this could be done with a dedicated website, leaflets that could be put through landowners' doors, with councils, NRW and farming unions and other representative bodies working together. We should be empowering communities to be proactive, checking if there is an issue and to know who to contact. They try and phone the council, but they can't get through, and it's always too late. This has been asked for several times by communities I represent.
Like I said, when flooding happens, it happens so quick, it's often too late to act. The reaction is to call the council for sandbags, the fire service or police. Sandbags may help, but it's often too late, and councils do not have to provide them. Many do not anymore—they can't afford to. And they do not store well. Many have to be made up just on demand. The fire service, if they do come out, have nowhere to pump the water. It just ends up recirculating.
If residents prone to flooding could have help with preventative measures to become more resilient, with flood gates, air brick caps, plugs—. Again, they could be directed to online information, a leaflet, and perhaps some grant funding for those who need it. It would be useful to include information regarding water capture as well, such as water butts, as the Minister often says would be really helpful, and permeable surfaces in gardens and driveways, as is often raised by Joyce Watson.
I welcome yesterday's announcements of the significant funding of £34 million announced for flood alleviation schemes, which is extremely positive news, and will now enable a great number of key flood prevention projects to be taken forward to the next stage, and will also support ambitious resilience planning, improvements and initiatives right across Wales. And I think it will also help attract new talent to this specialist area, which is so important and has been an issue.
It is important that we now maintain momentum with these important programmes, and that partners work together, as has been happening lately. As well as properties being impacted by flooding, our transport network is also impacted. Our railway network is extremely vulnerable, as is the highway network and structures such as bridges. I have often seen numerous landslides, subsidence, disappearing bridges, not to mention the potholes, and we need funding for locally maintained networks. There used to be ring-fenced capital funding but, with so much pressure on capital projects for housing and education, this gets squeezed so much, but we need to prevent damage before it becomes unsustainable. A little bit of prevention now for our highways would save a significant issue later on. We also need landowners not to drain onto the highways, as it washes the surface away. If fields were ploughed across, rather than down on the highways, it would make a huge difference. I understand that measures such as these will be included in Welsh Government's sustainable farming scheme. And if ditches and culverts were maintained, it would stop gullies developing on the sides of roads and washing away the surfaces. One of the most common misunderstandings is that, when there is a field, hedgerow, ditch, then highway verge, that ditch is not the council's responsibility, but it's actually the responsibility of the owner of the field. The ditches were once regularly maintained and there needs to be clear advice and direction about them being maintained again.
We are going to have more significant flooding events. NRW and councils are trying to use very scarce funding and resources in a way to manage flood. Landowners not maintaining ditches is a frustration. It can be an issue for rural areas, but run-off from land also impacts urban areas. Councils do have legislation to force private landowners, but they do not have an army of highway engineers to be able to do that one aspect of flood management; they don't have enough to go knocking on doors. They're asking landowners to take responsibility and be more proactive. I was concerned to hear Charles DeWinton of the Country Land and Business Association respond to my recent ITV piece saying that bureaucracy and land drainage consents prevent landowners from doing more and that most of the drains are the responsibility of statutory public authorities, such as NRW and councils. I'm concerned that a spokesperson commenting like that is adding more confusion and passing responsibility.
So, to finalise, I just think that if everybody knew their responsibility, whether it's landowners or home owners, under a national flood resilience plan, it could help prevent the devastation of flooding for communities right across Wales. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Carolyn, for bringing this debate forward today.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm really pleased to contribute, just briefly. The Minister will know that this is an issue I feel passionately about as well. I really do think you're right: it is a national problem; it's not just for those communities that are at risk. And I would also welcome any consideration the Minister has had about a national flood forum for Wales, because I think it is really important that we empower communities that face this risk and support them. Because you're right, it's completely traumatic and the more that we can do—. Because it will be impossible to save every home and business. So, that national conversation is needed, but also that structure to support communities, because not everybody can actually advocate for themselves. So, I think it is worth having that national plan infrastructure, but also, I would argue, a national flood forum for Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Carolyn, for giving me a minute. We know that water expands as it gets hotter, thus increasing the volume of water. We know that we're seeing flooding and storms occurring both more frequently and more violently than we have previously. The water must go somewhere. In Swansea, we have an artificial lake that's been created alongside the River Tawe. This gives the water somewhere to go where it does not do any damage, where the river breaches its banks, but it's meant to breach its banks at that point. As I say, the water must go somewhere; if we do not provide it with a place to go, then we'll get flooding, because it's going to find somewhere to go. Other actions that can reduce flooding are: planting trees and shrubs, so that the trees and shrubs can absorb the water before flooding occurs, preferably upstream; putting bends in rivers, which slows the movement of water coming down the river and stops the momentum building up; and, finally, making sure that culverts are clear.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I just wanted to share briefly something that I was told when I visited farmers in the Conwy valley last week. I went to look at the work that local farmers have been doing there to repair the Tan Lan embankment, changing the gradient of the cob to prevent more severe damage after a few episodes in recent years. Anyway, during my visit, they explained to me how the internal drainage district arrangements that they're part of are no longer actually working in a way that they feel is fit for purpose. They had less than complimentary things to say about Natural Resources Wales's role in that respect. It does raise serious questions, I believe, about the comparatively new arrangements for the drainage districts and it's clear that there are questions that need to be answered.
Now, the Conwy valley isn't unique in that respect. I know that there are concerns from the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd about arrangements in his area, and I know that there are concerns in Angleseyas well. The economy committee in the Senedd has now written, I believe, to the Welsh Government, to NRW and the farming unions to try and establish some evidence to look at this. I'm particularly keen that maybe the climate change committee could look at this as well. Farmers pay into the pot, but they don't feel that they get a sufficient return, and it's crazy to think, in the Conwy valley context, that the Tan Lanembankment is not part or not considered within the context of the drainage district, when it is the single most significant and influential piece of infrastructure when it comes to flooding and water management. So, I just wanted to highlight that as a concern of mine and one I hope that can be pursued through different committees in the Senedd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'm grateful to Carolyn for bringing this debate forward, because having such a plan is important, particularly if you look at my constituency. We're all aware of the story of Fairbourne; we know of Porthmadog and Pwllheli. But I want to pursue the same issue as Llyr and look at these internal drainage areas that have been something of a headache for me in Dwyfor Meirionydd, and there are more of them in the region than there are in any other part of Wales. NRW has a policy that is set down, as I understand it, through this Government not to clean riverbeds, so what happens is they silt up, they fill up, and so the internal drainage areas that are good but low-lying land do flood. For large parts of the year, this land is lost to farmers, they can't grow crops on that land and can't put their stock out. And this is a policy that's enabled by Government and is detrimental to us in large parts of Dwyfor Meirionydd and across Wales.
So, as the Minister responds, I would be grateful to hear what her thoughts are on internal drainage areas and is there any way to assemble a meeting of stakeholders in order to see if there's a way implementing this better, because the current system isn't working. Farmers face an additional tax that they have to pay in order to try and operate a system that is failing them at the moment. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on the Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Carolyn, for the opportunity to respond to this debate and set out how the Government is supporting communities at risk of flooding. The Welsh Government, as many people have mentioned, has a national strategy of flood and coastal erosion risk management. This was published in late 2020 and sets out our comprehensive approach and long-term measures for reducing flood risk across Wales. The strategy draws on learning from the devastating storms of 2020, which tragically impacted many communities in Wales, and underpins our programme for government and co-operation agreement commitments.
The national strategy supports improved resilience and encourages collaborative working to reduce risk by providing strategic direction through clear objectives and measures. It's focused on delivering improvements, enabling better communication, delivering natural solutions and catchment-scale management approaches. Aside from that, we also fund Natural Resources Wales and local authorities to engage in flood awareness and resilience activities throughout the year. They offer support on what to do before, during and after a flood. NRWundertake community outreach work and support the development of local community flood plans to increase resilience and adaptation in communities at high risk of flooding.
Just on that point, then, Heledd, I'm quite interested in the idea of a national flood forum of some sort. We do have several other—. So, we have a technical committee already working in the area; I don't think that's what you mean. What you mean is a forum for communities affected. So, I think there's a piece of work to be done, and I'll come on to that in my speech. I might probably have to précis this, because they've given me a 400-page speech here. [Laughter.] So, I'm very interested in looking at how the technical committee, the risk management authority committees, the national infrastructure commission, which is doing a piece of work as a result of the co-operation agreement, can come together to recommend how a citizen forum might work in conjunction with them, because I think you need to make sure it dovetails together and isn't just a forum to say how unhappy you are. You want people to have some say, don't you, in how those plans are put together. So, I do think there's a piece of work to make that jigsaw work. So, just to say that.
And then, the way that we do do flooding—Carolyn mentioned this as well—there's a real issue with the way that riparian owners or non-owners or people who don't know if they're owners and the risk management authorities, which are the local authorities with their flood hat on, work together. We have looked at a piece of work to try and map that out, but it's very difficult to do. So, I think, forat least the SAC catchment areas,which are not all of the catchment areas, just to be clear, by a long shot, but, just for the SACs, we are currently trialling in the Teifi a source-all-the-way-to-Poppit Sands remediation, which I went along to the hackathon in Aberystwyth of, which was wonderful, actually, with lots of really engaged people all challenging and working together to see what can be done to look at the whole of the Teifi,and look at every single landowner and user all along its banks, all the way to Poppit Sands—I love Poppit Sands, that's why I keep saying it—and to make sure that we can remediate that river properly, so that it's in good conservation order, but in a way that allows us to scale that work up across Wales. The biodiversity deep-dive also asked us to do that, but they wanted to look at the Brecon Beacons megacatchment, and that, frankly, is too big a chunk to be able to do in that sort of way, so the Teifi's been chosen specifically, because, although it's quite a big area, obviously, it's a kind of doable scale, and I think we will be doing a piece of work about the riparian landowner issues along there, although there aren't that many built-up areas, and it's more of a problem there. So, I just wanted to set out what we're trying to do.
And the point about the national strategy is we're trying to do a number of things at the same time. So, as Mabon said, we're trying to increase awareness of communities like Fairhaven and all the rest of it, about what can be done in communities. So, I just want to re-emphasise—I say this all the time—the Welsh Government has not said that we will not defend any community. So, we haven't said we won't. But it is clear—I think you said, Heledd—that we will not in the end be able to defend every community, so we need to have strategies, don't we, for communities that probably can't be defended. But I just wanted to say that, because you do hear all the time, ‘Well, you've said you won't,’ and that's not so, but we do have to have strategies for that, and it's very important where people live in those communities, but there are other pieces of cultural heritage that are threatened by the sea. So, I famously love the Pembrokeshire coast, as the deputy acting Presiding Officer knows, and particularly like Whitesands and Abereiddy, where I've gone every year for all of my years, which is many, many years now. And the Street, as it's called, the row of quarry workers' houses that's there, is going into the sea. Because they took the sea defences away, and it's a storm beach now. So, you can see that that piece of cultural heritage is going to disappear. And in Whitesands, the church that’s on the side there that’s been excavated, it's been excavated because people who were buried in the churchyard unfortunately started to come up, and it's very fascinating, if you don't know it. But it's a piece of cultural heritage that I think we would all have liked to have protected, but it just isn't going to be feasible to do.
So, we do have to have, I think, sensible solutions for protecting both communities where people live and heritage communities from the sea, or come to terms with how we are going to abandon them in a way that isn't destructive, it's helpful to do that. And there was a very brilliant project between us and Ireland—which I think the acting Deputy Presiding Officer might have been involved in as well—called CHERISH. I don't know if you come across that. And they've done quite a bit piece of work on this, about how to do it, because it's a commonplace problem across the world.
So, I think, in conclusion, it's a very important issue. There's a lot more to learn. We've had the NIC report, we've had Professor Elwen Evans KC's report that Heledd pushed and has been very useful. We haven't formally responded to those yet, so whoever is standing in my place in a couple of weeks' time will be in charge of getting that response together. And I think in doing that—it's the next national climate change resilience strategy, actually, which is due to be published this October—we will need to have a look at those fora to make sure that our communities are properly engaged in the work that we're doing, because I was very struck, Heledd, by the meeting that I had with you and a number of other MSs about the people with the flash flooding and what we can do about it. We need to give people all the tools, as you rightly say, to be able to make themselves as safe as possible, and also to be able to plan for the future, whatever that future is, and it might not be that they're able to stay where they are, but they have to have a future that they can plan for. So, I think that's where it'll come. It'll come in the next climate change resilience strategy, and we have a little way to go before that so that we can get all the pieces of this jigsaw put together. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch.

10. Short Debate: Saving lives and protecting our communities—The case for overdose prevention centres

Joyce Watson AC: I'm going to move on now to the second short debate,and it’s Peredur Owen Griffiths on saving lives and protecting our communities—the case for overdose prevention centres. I call on Peredur to speak on the topic that he’s chosen.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd dros dro. By almost any measure you want to look at, the war on drugs has failed. It has failed in the high number of drug deaths; it has failed when you look at how drugs have become a significant factor in determining prison population; and it has failed when you look at the grip it has on many of our communities.
We are subject to Westminster’s legislation, which is more than 50 years old, namely the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, which very much favours the stick rather than the carrot when it comes to dealing with drug use. I favour an evidence-based compassionate approach to drugs policy. I’ve made no secret of that since my election to our Parliament. But whatever your views on legislation or declassification, I hope we can all agree in our Senedd that saving lives should be a priority. As one former police officer said, during a meeting of the cross-party group on substance use and addiction that I chair, 'Saving lives is not being soft on drugs.'
Maintaining the status quo—the half-century-old status quo—would do nothing to tackle the shameful drug deaths we are seeing in Wales year on year. Although the rate fell slightly in Wales last year, it is up more than 50 per cent over the last 10 years. The drug death figures in Wales remain higher than the death rate in England. According to the Office for National Statistics, opiates were involved in nearly half of such deaths.
The horrific death toll was brought home during a cross-party group on substance use and addiction, where there was a visual display of flowers assembled by the charity Transform, to represent each drugs death in the UK over the previous year. To look upon the huge display of flowers assembled that day was powerful and distressing in equal measure. Behind every one of those statistics is a life taken too soon, not to mention a family and a circle of friends left bereft—the deaths that are indeed the most shocking aspects of the failed way in which we deal with drug addiction in Wales and England, but there are many other drawbacks.
One of these is the litter left behind by street injectors that possess a significant health hazard to the public. I know of one area in Cardiff where there is open injecting of heroin and discarded needles within a stone’s throw of a primary school. That is not right. It is not right for the drug takers and it’s not right for the people in that community to suffer that.
One solution to this matter, which has been adopted to remarkable success internationally, is the establishment of overdose prevention centres. The OPCs are, in the words of drug charity Transform, hygienic safe spaces, where people are able to take drugs safely under the supervision of trained staff. They have access to sterile equipment and staff can respond immediately to overdose. They can also provide a gateway to a myriad of services that could lead to the drug users kicking the habit or, at the very least, becoming healthier, better supported and, therefore, more likely to stay alive.
This is a policy that is not as radical as some would have you believe. It has been adopted by 14 countries, with the total number of OPCs numbering nearly 200. Among these countries are the US, France, Portugal, Ukraine, Norway, Belgium, Spain, Canada and Australia. If they can do it, then why can’t we? The reason why these have become popular is because there is a multitude of good reasons for these countries to establish OPCs. A rapid evidence review into overdose prevention centres found that they, and I quote,
'reduce harm, save lives, and promote wellbeing with voluntary access to social health, welfare, and drug treatment services.'
They also reduce the risk of transmission of blood-borne diseases by offering testing services, sterile equipment, safe disposal options and expert advice. The risk of overdose is also prevented through risk-minimisation strategies and calming environments, and, if needs be, swift intervention through naloxone in the event of an overdose. Naloxone saves lives, and I'm pleased to see that police forces have embraced officers carrying it in recent years.
OPCs have also been found to help marginalised members of society who may find it hard to access services because of various negative experiences. The drug charity Kaleidoscope, which I work closely with on the cross-party group, wants to establish a pilot project in this field. In what is a typically brave and progressive move by the charity, they have vowed to open an enhanced reduction service. I want to make it clear that this is not an overdose prevention centre, but there are parallels in terms of the work carried out and the benefits of such a project.
One of the aims of the project is to target anti-social behaviour by providing an alternative place to inject drugs for those who are street homeless or injecting in public places. A key part of this plan is to work in collaboration with the community to reduce drug litter and anti-social behaviour. Another vital component is to reduce the stigma drug users face because of their drug use and to provide access to treatment for a group of people who are treatment resistant. The project will build on existing needle syringe exchanges, and, once the pilot project has shown the anticipated positive results, it has planned to role out such services throughout Wales, where suitable needle exchanges already exist. It's not expected to be a costly service, since it will complement existing provision.
What is key is that the roll-out happens swiftly, as front-line workers in treatment services are increasingly seeing significantly more dangerous heroin supplies caused by new additions, such as the nitazenes, which are strong, synthetic opioids. We have heard on the news just today that the UK Government has been slow to react to the spread of these new drugs, so there is definitely the need to catch up on this. We can't delay. Because if we do, more people will die.
I understand that Kaleidoscope is working with South Wales Police on the pilot project and a memorandum of understanding is being drawn up to allow this to happen, hopefully later this summer. Other organisations, such as community safety partnerships and local authorities are involved, but, to date, I'm led to believe that there has been no engagement with the Welsh Government on this matter. I'd like to see that change, Deputy Minister, unless you can put me straight on that in your response.
Like I said earlier, behind any drug death, there is a traumatic family bereavement. In one of the cross-party group sessions we held, we heard from Pat, whose sonKevin was found unconscious in a locked public toilet in Carmarthen town centre in December 2017. After injecting drugs, he suffered a cardiac arrest and a brain haemorrhage. His family made the heartbreaking decision to switch his life support machine off. He was just 32 years old. Pat herself said that her son and several of his friends would be alive today if there had been somewhere safe to go for them to inject drugs. It is time we listen to people like Pat, take heed of the international success stories and learn the lessons of 50 years of failed drug policy in the UK.
OPCs or pilot projects like the one Kaleidoscope propose may not be a silver bullet for tackling drug addiction, but they are a step in the right direction in terms of saving lives and protecting our communities. In the many discussions we've had, Deputy Minister, I know you're passionate about harm reduction; this is a way of making that happen. Diolch yn fawr.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to reply to the debate. Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank Peredur for tabling this debate today and for the points that he has made? And I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank him for the continued work he's undertaken with the cross-party group. As the Member knows, our drug policy in Wales is rooted in a harm-reduction approach, which recognises substance misuse as a public health issue, as opposed to one that is solely related to criminal justice. We will be increasing our investment in our substance misuse agenda to just over £67 million next financial year. We've not only protected this budget, but despite being the most challenging budget that the Welsh Government has ever had to set, we have again increased funding by almost £3 million to our front-line substance misuse services.
I am clear, though, that we need more than just additional investment in services. We need to see innovation and change to meet these new challenges, leading to better outcomes. One of the areas where we have seen innovation and change is how we support those with the most complex needs. We introduced Buvidal, which now benefits over 1,700 people in Wales. I was able, recently, to visit the Buvidal psychological support service in Cardiff. I heard how Buvidal has benefited individuals and how the introduction of wraparound psychology support helps address their trauma. I also heard from service users how the flexibility and time given to them makes them feel cared for and supported for the first time in many years. Many long-term service users now have successful journeys to recovery after decades of opioid misuse, with significant numbers significantly ending treatment substance free. Given the significant early evidence of improved outcomes, I have chosen to continue to invest £3 million again this year in this treatment, and we have also commissioned an independent evaluation. In addition to this, we now invest £4.5 million in dedicated services to support those with the most complex needs, providing outreach and multi-agency teams, including mental health, to engage those hard-to-reach groups into treatment, not least people who are homeless or in temporary accommodation.
Every drug-related death is a tragedy. In 2022, there were 205 drug misuse deaths. The number of deaths in 2022 was five fewer than in 2021. And the Member today has put forward a case for overdose prevention centres, which I know is an area that the cross-party group has received presentations on. But as the Member will be aware, we could not currently take work forward on overdose prevention centres as a Government unless there is a change in the law. This is a matter for the UK Government, as overdose prevention centres interact with current criminal law relating to the misuse of drugs. Such facilities would face criminal offences, such as the possession of controlled drugs. I am aware that the Home Office have previously stated they do not intend to review legislation to allow the establishment of overdose prevention centres in the UK. I give way to the Member.

Sioned Williams AS: Do you think that, therefore—? You've heard our arguments for the devolution of criminal justice for exactly this reason. Do you see, therefore, that the piecemeal approach, suggested by Gordon Brown and that seems to be adopted by Keir Starmer, won't address this issue, and don't you regret that?

Lynne Neagle AC: Well, you're aware, Sioned, of our position on this, and the conversations that have taken place with the UK Labour Party. Obviously, there are further discussions that will take place about this going forward, but I have to operate with what the law is now at the moment, and that is very much my focus. I'm also aware that the independent review of drugs, undertaken by Dame Carol Black in 2019, specifically excluded considerations of changes to the existing legislative framework, and the Home Office has given no indication that it intends to reconsider the previously stated position on overdose prevention centres.
I am, however, aware that the Scottish Government is aiming to open the first overdose prevention centre in the UK. I attended a UK Government ministerial meeting in November, where a presentation was given on how this work is progressing. My officials are in close contact with Scottish Government officials on this, and it's an area that we will be watching closely to see what happens.
Peredur raised the issue of the project in Cardiff and if I can provide an update on that as regards the latest information I've been given. I understand that a meeting took place on this issue on 20 December last year. That was co-ordinated by the chair of the area planning board in Cardiff and the Vale, and attended by representatives of the council and South Wales Police. At the meeting, the chief executive of Kaleidoscope outlined plans for a safe injecting pilot at the Huggard centre in Cardiff. I've been informed that the discussion centered around a small number of high-risk individuals meeting agreed criteria, and that they would access the Huggard centre's needle and syringe programme.

Lynne Neagle AC: My officials then met with the new chair of the area planning board in January, to discuss this and asked to be kept updated on developments. Following this meeting, my officials have not received any updates. My officials have also spoken to South Wales Police, and there's not been an approach to formally discuss a memorandum of understanding that would state that the project would not be a policing priority and prosecution of workers and users would not be in the public interest. Without that agreement, our understanding is that due to legal implications under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, it would not be permissible. Given the interest and scrutiny that the establishment of such a project would also attract, it would need to be robustly established, with the support of a wide range of stakeholders, including the local community. But I'm very happy to provide further updates to the Member should my officials have further contact from the people involved in the Cardiff project.
While the focus of this debate is on overdose prevention centres, I do think we should recognise that there's a range of work we are undertaking to support those who need it most and to reduce drug-related deaths. We are working closely with our substance misuse area planning boards, third sector organisations, and individuals, to ensure everything possible is being done to provide support and treatment quickly, and to reach those not currently in touch with substance misuse services.
One area I'm particularly concerned about at present is one referred to by the Member, which is the increased use of synthetic opioids at a UK level. We are aware of the very real threat of these, and the increased risk of drug-related deaths. Monitoring emerging threats, and then ensuring that individuals and organisations are aware of them, is a key part of our substance misuse agenda in Wales, and an integral part of our approach to tackling this issue. We are very fortunate to have the WEDINOS programme here in Wales, which has been in place for over 10 years. This is a crucial part of our harm reduction approach. It provides real-time data and harm reduction information about new and emerging substances circulating across Wales and the UK. Following an increase in the prevalence of a synthetic opioid called nitazenesthrough WEDINOS, we've ensured that areas are provided with alerts, and these have been supported by harm reduction information.Also, area planning boards have developed a range of information focused on reducing risks, recognising signs of overdose and responding accordingly. Areas are ensuring information is being disseminated widely and utilising peers to ensure those not in treatment are getting key messages.
A notable example of success is our ongoing distribution of naloxone. We've continued funding as a Government to support our national naloxone programme, and this is more important than ever given the increase in synthetic opioids and the evidence that they are much more potent than the usual heroin that would be bought on the street. Since the start of the naloxone distribution, over 41,000 kits have been distributed, of which over 3,000 have been used to reverse an overdose. We are the first country in the UK to fully roll out peer-to-peer distribution of naloxone, which is something I'm really proud of, and I would like to acknowledge the hard work and effort put in peers in engaging those who may not otherwise come into contact with services and therefore not have the opportunity to carry naloxone. Along with providing naloxone, other harm reduction initiatives and essential advice is provided by the peers, and we will continue to work with them and to deliver further harm reduction projects across Wales.
In addition to this, it is great to see that all police force areas in Wales now have officers carrying nasal naloxone. In total, 810 naloxonekits have been supplied to police officers, and officers have used naloxone 89 times. This is, in essence, 89 lives saved. Also, our national helpline, DAN 24/7, has the all-Wales naloxone 'click and deliver' page. The intention of this service is to create a simple and easy-to-use platform that allows website users to complete naloxone training and to order themselves a life-saving kit, which they receive in the post.
We also work closely with harm reduction leads and case review co-ordinators across Wales to ensure the review of drug death poisonings in real time. These reviews enable multi-agency discussions surrounding individuals' previous drug use and contact with services. Having these reviews in real time allows any key harm reduction information to be widely disseminated to reduce further harm to others. It also enables areas to evaluate current practice and allows our area planning boards to amend practice where necessary.
I'm also committed to improving data sharing between agencies where there are non-fatal incidents, as this is about saving lives too. I know this can be a complex issue, and it has been a regular item as part of our national implementation board for drug poisoning preventions. We are making solid progress in this area. The national board has been fundamental in many areas surrounding our harm reduction approach, and has successfully driven key initiatives with partners such as take-home naloxone, synthetic opioidsand the importance of data sharing.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: We've got police and crime commissioner elections coming in May. Assuming that you're going to be in Government after this week, would you commit to working with new PCCs, when they're elected, to drive forward the work that you've been doing with this and trying to work across the legal problems that that might have with regard to Westminster and here, and trying to work for those innovative ideas of how to put things in place to be able to try new things here and to be a test bed to see what works?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you. I'm very happy to commit to working with the PCCs. We've got a really strong partnership approach in Wales. We've got a policing and partnership board for Wales, which the PCCs sit on along with police representation and cross-Government Ministers. The police have been incredibly supportive of the roll-out of nasal naloxone. I know from the last meeting that I attended that they're as worried as I am about nitazenes hitting the streets in Wales. So, I'm very happy to give the commitment that we'll continue to work together to look at all options to prevent drug-related deaths. But, obviously, we also have to operate within the law, as I'm sure you'll understand.
I will conclude by saying that I welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate, as this is an area I am very passionate about. Whilst we do not hold all the legislative powers, there is much we are doing to drive a distinct Welsh response to substance misuse and to make a difference. I hope that I've been able to show some of the areas where we continue to work to tackle substance misuse, and I'm very happy to have further discussions with the Member on areas that have been highlighted through the work of the cross-party group, as this is an ever-changing landscape and we have to adapt as the landscape changes. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:09.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Joyce Watson: Will the Minister provide an update on what the Welsh Government is doing to help tackle the nature emergency?

Julie James: Welsh Government is helping to tackle the nature emergency through initiatives such as the Nature Networks and national peatland action programmes that benefit our terrestrial, freshwater and marine environments. We are also strengthening our legislative framework, including introducing statutory biodiversity targets, as set out in our recently published White Paper.

Adam Price: What is the Welsh Government doing to support innovation in the development of temporary accommodation as part of its homelessness strategy?

Julie James: Welsh Government’s ending homelessness strategy sets out our commitment to reducing reliance on temporary accommodation and moving to a system focused on prevention and rapid rehousing. Our priority is therefore investment in more good-quality permanent homes to support move-on from temporary accommodation, as well as investment in preventative services.

Carolyn Thomas: How is the Welsh Government highlighting the responsibility of land owners to maintain ditches, culverts and watercourses to prevent flooding?

Julie James: On 7 February I issued a written statement outlining the expectations of riparian owners and highlighting the guidance document produced by Natural Resources Wales. Anyone who owns land or property that either contains or is next to a river, stream or ditch has responsibilities as a riparian landowner.

Cefin Campbell: What is the Welsh Government doing to support and promote community ownership of land and assets in Mid and West Wales?

Julie James: I am committed to supporting the work of community groups but understand the difficulties that many face. That is why I have commissioned a review of community asset ownership to understand the issues and suggest solutions. I am also providing financial support for community-led initiatives, particularly housing.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Altaf Hussain: What plans does the Welsh Government have to improve primary care service provision?

Eluned Morgan: We plan to continue working with health boards and professional bodies to improve primary care in line with the primary care model for Wales. Key action includes the strategic programme for primary care and the reform of the national contracts for general medical services, pharmacy, dentistry and optometry.

Peter Fox: Will the Minister make a statement on the future of dentistry in Wales?

Eluned Morgan: Welsh Government officials are currently involved in tripartite negotiations for the development of a new dental contract. This will embed the prudent healthcare principles set out in the oral health response to 'A Healthier Wales' and will drive the substantive change required to truly reform the provision of NHS dentistry.

Cefin Campbell: How is the Welsh Government supporting community pharmacies in Mid and West Wales?

Eluned Morgan: Community pharmacies in Mid and West Wales will benefit from the £165.1 million we are making available through the community pharmacy contractual framework, the highest ever level of funding for pharmacies in Wales.